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Are the Saviors We've Met Dark Versions of Rick's Group?

Discussion in 'Speculation' started by Doctor Grimes, Aug 28, 2016.

  1. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    This theory/observation has been bouncing around quite a number of circles. The basic gist is that the main Saviors we've met are all -- in some way -- dark versions or mirrors of our main characters.

    Chelle = Maggie
    Paula = Carol
    Dwight = Daryl
    Negan = Rick

    Chelle
    Chelle sports an appearance that is even downright similar to Maggie's. They're around the same age. What's interesting is that Chelle lost her father (Frank) and was planning on naming her child after her dead father -- but tragically she lost the child. In the comic, Maggie names her child after Hershel (her own dead father).

    Disconcertingly, Chelle tells Maggie about her dead boyfriend -- who was blown up when Daryl launched the rocket launcher.
    If spoilers hold true, Maggie will lose her husband -- also, in a way, because of Daryl.

    Paula
    Paula's casting call read, "40s-50s, Cool, controlled, formidable. She’s faced tragedy and trauma and come out the other side stronger and harder. But she’s also become colder and less outwardly emotional — she avoids attachments and maintains a toughly pragmatic, nihilistic worldview…", which, in a way, mirrors Carol's emotional state at various points in the series (although this appears to be a smokescreen to veil a deep-seated hurt).

    Paula also lost a husband and four daughters. Similarly, Carol has lost her husband (Ed) and a daughter (Sophia) plus three surrogate child figures (Mika, Lizzie, and Sam [or perhaps Beth can be seen as approximation to this]).

    Dwight
    Daryl and Dwight's story seem bound to be together. It's no surprise -- comic Dwight was created to be sort of an approximate to TV Daryl. Dwight ends up taking Daryl's crossbow and using it to kill Denise, which sends Daryl hunting for Dwight -- but this ends up backfiring, as Daryl became the hunted.

    In season 7, it looks like Dwight is sporting Daryl's vest -- which further illustrates the similarities between these two.

    Negan
    While Rick and Negan don't share similar personalities, they're both leaders of strong communities -- both who will resort to downright cruelty to ensure the safety of their respective communities (although their motives are very different). Kirkman went down as saying Rick and Negan are two heads to the same coin.

    "When it comes to the Saviors, and Negan in particular, the way I’ve always thought about this in the comics is this is a group that’s led by a guy who’s had his morality dial a few clicks away from Rick toward the darker aspects of his personality, but is still an intellectual and capable leader who’s kept his group alive against all odds just as long as Rick has. It’s really the best encountering the best. When these two forces come head to head, things are gonna get interesting. This is a much different group than they’ve ever encountered. The Saviors are a group they’re not really prepared for.”
    So, in that respect, Negan is like the antithesis of Rick. His dark foil.


    All that said, it makes me wonder: to what purpose was this done? Why have some of the Saviors so closely mirror Rick's group? Just to show that our characters could've wound up like them if fate had gone a different way? Perhaps a method of humanizing them? Or is it for foreshadowing?

    This also makes me wonder -- are other Savior characters parallels for people in Rick's group? In which case, I wonder who Molly was supposed to be. She had a very specific casting call.

    "50s-60s Like someone’s black sheep biker great aunt. An extrovert with badass Texan charm and a darkly humorous take on life. She knows she’s not long for this world, but doesn’t let that get her down. In spite of Mary’s age and general demeanor, she is not someone you want to mess with…"​

    Does this mean Simon is a dark foil to someone? In which case, who?
     
  2. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    It just occurred to me Molly could be the Abraham figure. "Badass Texan charm" and "darkly humorous take on life" sound like grade-A Abraham qualities to me.

    And Molly died by getting her head bludgeoned. :|
     
  3. Butler36

    Butler36 What?
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    Molly sounds like Abe, funny enough. And Abe is from Texas and they are close in age (Abe is in his fifties).
     
  4. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Ha! I caught that too after I posted. I definitely think Molly was our Abraham figure. Plus, the smoking she was doing was like Abraham and his cigars.

    My only guess for Simon would be Michonne. Simon is Negan's ride or die dude, right? Michonne is Rick's.
     
  5. Butler36

    Butler36 What?
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    I should have just looked down. lol
     
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  6. Butler36

    Butler36 What?
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    That's what I was thinking. We don't know a lot about Simon other than he seems extremely loyal, is Negan's right hand, and is extremely effective at intimidation and fighting. I'm sure more things will be revealed about him in the future as well. So that will be interesting.
     
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  7. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I do hope Simon is the Michonne foil, because that would hint that they might potentially encounter each other in the future. (I'd love to see Steve Ogg and Danai in the same scene together.)
     
  8. Butler36

    Butler36 What?
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    This is my thinking too. Especially if he is supposed to be
    a replacement for Connor who is Negan's right hand in the comic. He might give Michonne some serious trouble.
     
  9. AbsoluteTrash

    AbsoluteTrash Eating 112 oz. of Pudding
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    Really good catch. And at this point in the show, wasn't Abe on that whole suicidal kick i.e. thinking he wasn't going to be long for this world.

    Now I am going to spend a fair amount of the new season comparing Saviors to members of our group. I love a good foil.
     
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  10. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    Aw, you beat me to it. I was gonna say Simon appears to be Negan's second in command and his ride or die guy and I'm hoping something similar to the tower fight in the GN comes out of it between him and Michonne. I would love it! :michwtf::ogg:
     
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  11. box5angel

    box5angel The New Mrs. Grimes
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    As soon as I read that about Molly, I thought of Abraham.
    By Negan or someone else?
     
  12. balladsinthebluegrass

    balladsinthebluegrass Hold to things that are bright.
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    Rick and Negan have another similarity, don't they? Didn't Negan lose his wife, too? I'm not much of a comic reader, but I think I remember hearing that.
     
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  13. Gooey Goobert

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    Decided to throw it under the tag just in case.
    She hasn't technically died yet from what I've read so far, but she's on her way. Also, there is a bit of similarity between Rick and Negan's backstory in that they were both at a hospital when the outbreak happened.
     
    #13 Gooey Goobert, Aug 30, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
  14. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    With regard to a remix of the Connor-Andrea fight with Simon-Michonne instead, I could see that being a catalyst for AOW as others have speculated.

    In 6.15, Abe and Rick did have this conversation.

    Abraham: “You afraid to go back to it? To let somebody close?”
    Rick: “Yeah.”
    Abraham: “Me too. But now, I think I’m that much more ready to tear the world a new asshole.” ​

    I could see 7.15 being Rick doing exactly that -- since Gimple is fond of parallels. 7.15 could also end on a cliffhanger with Michonne's fate up in the air. Then 7.16 would be Lucille Part II: Electric Boogaloo -- but it's subverted by some type of cavalry action.
     
  15. Canuckgirl

    Canuckgirl Ricktator

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    Ronny Haze just posted a video about that same subject. I will try to post it tomorrow
     
  16. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    @Butler36 made a great point that

    Fat Joey from 7.03 could be the Savior foil to Eugene. Here's the description of Fat Joey from the TSDF Q and A.

    "Fat Joey" is one of Negan's top lieutenants and is the one who leaves Daryl's cell door unlocked. Daryl, thinking that Joey is just fat and stupid, falls for it and ends up being punished once he's caught.
    This could be like Eugene turning coat and being considered "weak" and thus underestimated by Negan and co
     
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  17. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I went ahead and compiled a new list (with some input from @Butler36)

    I think these are the Saviors and their foils on Rick's side.
    Negan - Rick
    Dwight - Daryl
    Simon - Michonne*
    Chelle - Maggie
    Paula - Carol
    Molly - Abraham*
    Jiro - Glenn
    Sherry - Rosita
    Fat Joey - Eugene
    Arat - Tara

    Still not sure if they have a foil or who it is: Sasha, Gabriel, Aaron, Morgan (could be they're not revealed yet or I'm just missing something)

    I assume Carl is one character who doesn't have a dark doppelganger.

    Here's my analysis as to who is who...

    Negan : Rick
    While Rick and Negan don't share similar personalities, they're both leaders of strong communities -- both who will resort to downright cruelty to ensure the safety of their respective communities (although their motives are very different). Kirkman went down as saying Rick and Negan are two heads to the same coin.

    "When it comes to the Saviors, and Negan in particular, the way I’ve always thought about this in the comics is this is a group that’s led by a guy who’s had his morality dial a few clicks away from Rick toward the darker aspects of his personality, but is still an intellectual and capable leader who’s kept his group alive against all odds just as long as Rick has. It’s really the best encountering the best. When these two forces come head to head, things are gonna get interesting. This is a much different group than they’ve ever encountered. The Saviors are a group they’re not really prepared for.”​

    So, in that respect, Negan is like the antithesis of Rick. His mirror image in almost every way.


    Dwight : Daryl
    This one seems obvious. Daryl and Dwight's story seem bound to be together. It's no surprise -- comic Dwight was created to be sort of an approximate to TV Daryl. Dwight ends up taking Daryl's crossbow and using it to kill Denise, which sends Daryl hunting for Dwight -- but this ends up backfiring, as Daryl became the hunted. Plus? Dwight now seems to be going out of his way to take on Daryl's attributes (vest, crossbow, even his bike).


    Simon : Michonne*
    Simon is Negan's "right hand man" -- or the most valuable player in Negan's game of chess. Negan assumed Abraham was Rick's "Simon" -- so he took him out at the start of the game. This is because Abraham is a man, like Simon, and was literally seated to the right of Rick in the line-up. However, this was a mistake. Michonne is Rick's most powerful ally and his true "right hand man" (or, in a game of chess, his "Queen").

    Like Michonne, Simon appears to be the level-headed, friendly, cool-operator at the side of the "King". If they do the tower fight remix, I have no doubt it'll be Simon v. Michonne. And it's because they're filling the same role.


    Chelle : Maggie
    Chelle sports an appearance that is even downright similar to Maggie's. They're around the same age. What's interesting is that Chelle lost her father (Frank) and was planning on naming her child after her dead father -- but tragically she lost the child. In the comic, Maggie names her child after Hershel (her own dead father).

    Disconcertingly, Chelle tells Maggie about her dead boyfriend -- who was blown up when Daryl launched the rocket launcher. Guess who lost their husband? Maggie.


    Paula : Carol
    Paula's casting call read, "40s-50s, Cool, controlled, formidable. She’s faced tragedy and trauma and come out the other side stronger and harder. But she’s also become colder and less outwardly emotional — she avoids attachments and maintains a toughly pragmatic, nihilistic worldview…", which, in a way, mirrors Carol's emotional state at various points in the series (although this appears to be a smokescreen to veil a deep-seated hurt).

    Paula also lost a husband and four daughters. Similarly, Carol has lost her husband (Ed) and a daughter (Sophia) plus three surrogate child figures (Mika, Lizzie, and Sam [or perhaps Beth can be seen as approximation to this]).


    Molly : Abraham*
    Molly and Simon are the only two on Negan's side that have gender-swapped foils -- and I believe this is because Negan was meant to underestimate or mistake Michonne for a man (Abraham) as Rick's "right hand man". Molly is definitely the Abraham foil though, without a doubt. Here was her casting call:

    "50s-60s Like someone’s black sheep biker great aunt. An extrovert with badass Texan charm and a darkly humorous take on life. She knows she’s not long for this world, but doesn’t let that get her down. In spite of Mary’s age and general demeanor, she is not someone you want to mess with…"​

    It's basically Abraham, but in biker mama form. Even weirder? Molly died by getting her head bashed by Maggie. Kind of like Abraham getting bludgeoned to death by Negan.


    Jiro : Glenn
    Barring the fact they're both East Asian (which is a surface-level comparison), Jiro was a pawn who went out with his men and got killed in battle. Just like how Glenn is a guy who went out with his friends -- and inevitably got killed. He was also killed with a head injury (knife to the head) like Glenn.


    Sherry : Rosita
    Both women underestimate their inner strength and rely on their sexuality to gain what they perceive as security (Sherry offering to be Negan's wife to save Dwight; Rosita attracting Abraham (and the men before him) as a protector). Furthermore, the fact spoilers for 7.04 indicate Dwight shows some unsettling interest in Rosita is interesting -- given it's possible Rosita is Sherry's foil.

    Plus the Rosita-Daryl-Denise trio in "Twice As Far" appeared to be a mirror to Sherry-Dwight-Tina. Both involved the procuring of medicine and an unfortunate encounter with Daryl/Dwight (in both incarnations).


    Fat Joey : Eugene
    Barring the fact they're both overweight men, Fat Joey appears to be a guy who is taken as an idiot because of his appearance and demeanor, but he might be more cunning than he appears. Likewise, Eugene is the same. He disarms people with his demeanor, but he contains more bravery and intelligence than people would think.


    Arat : Tara
    I mean, the names alone. I don't know what else to say.


    Not sure where this is going, but I do think there's something hinky going on with the parallels here. The Saviors are truly like a dark alternate universe version of Rick's group.