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Poll Career Day: Who is responsible?

Discussion in '6x16: Last Day on Earth' started by Doctor Grimes, Jul 1, 2016.

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Was career day always going to happen? Who is responsible?

  1. No one is at fault. It was always going to happen; it didn't matter what Rick's group did.

    13 vote(s)
    52.0%
  2. Everyone who voted to attack the Saviors in the church is equally at fault. It was a team effort.

    10 vote(s)
    40.0%
  3. Rick is the leader; the responsibility lies with him.

    1 vote(s)
    4.0%
  4. It was someone else's fault. (Please explain)

    1 vote(s)
    4.0%
  1. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    This was a debate on TSDF, and I figured we could discuss it here as well.

    Career Day: Negan rounding up Rick's people, he's going to kill one of them as punishment. The Saviors got our intrepid heroes right where they want them.

    ... Did the group bring this upon themselves? Is it as Norman Reedus said, was Rick the pied piper who led them to their doom?

    Or was it always going to happen this way? Or was it someone else's fault?

    What do you guys think?
     
  2. Lolololove3

    Lolololove3 Den Mother

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    It was always going to happen.
     
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  3. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    As much as I like to gnash my teeth and point the finger at Daryl, I do think ultimately it was always going to happen.

    Even if Rick had been apprised of the true threat the Saviors posed, there were still a lot of factors against them:
    1. Their food shortage. The ASZ was hurting for food. While they didn't depict it as well as I would've liked, there were some hints that the situation was getting dire. The only thing of value they had to trade was their fighting ability.
    2. Craig. There was a limited window they had to rescue him. While Craig could've been left to die, his recovery was part of the original deal with Hilltop. Taking the time to do reconnaissance probably would've meant bye-bye to poor Craig.
    3. Maggie's illness. While we don't yet know what caused it, even if Rick and co. had battened the proverbial hatches knowing the Saviors were out there, if Maggie still fell ill when she did, they would have to leave Alexandria eventually -- and into the Saviors they would've run.
    4. Dwight. Dwight was still aware of the fact Daryl had a camp -- and it seems that Dwight and Daryl were always destined to encounter one another. Even if they'd never negotiated with Hilltop and never attacked the Outpost, the confrontation with Dwight still could've very well happened at the same time it did.
    5. The Saviors themselves. It appears the Saviors were already on the prowl. Even if Rick and co. decided to go on the defensive, screw a deal with Hilltop, and fortify, they were still up against an army. Sure, they might've been a little more prepared, but with their food shortage, they would be making runs, thus making themselves vulnerable to enemy attack.
    ... It was always going to happen. The timing might've changed, but the results would've probably still been the same.
     
  4. vicarious70

    vicarious70 Caressing Eugene's Mullet

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    I think the blame should be everyone's except Morgan, since he's the only one was against the way they wanted to go about taking out the saviors. Rick should not shoulder the brunt of the blame. But I also agree no matter what something had to be done regardless.
     
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  5. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    Honestly the plan they had was the best they could do under the circumstances and time constraint. Morgan wasn't on board, but his alternative wasn't any better (or feasible). Although TF may have accelerated Career Day, it really was a matter of time.
     
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  6. Silas

    Silas Beloved Side Piece
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    How about this? It's Negan's fault.

    As much as I want to point the finger at some of TF and claim they should know better, no one would be in this situation without Negan screwing over Hilltop in the first place. Negan bashed in the head of a 16 year old, Negan forced Hilltop into a situation where they couldn't trade food for guns unless there was more added to the table, Negan's men cornered Daryl, Abe, and Sasha and is truthfully responsible for getting his men killed for telling them to go bully everyone in the area. So I'm blaming Negan.
     
  7. Tyler

    Tyler ▇ ▅ █ ▅ ▇ ▂ ▃ ▁ ▁ ▅ ▃ ▅ ▅ ▄ ▅ ▇▇ ▅ █ ▅ ▇
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    Everyone involved in E12
     
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  8. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    @Doctor Grimes has a great roundup above of all the many reasons it was just a matter of time. I hate that they did what they did at that outpost for food and of course I expect Negan wants payback for it, but thinking logically about it, that probably had the least to do with career day happening. Jesus said they beat a 16-year-old Hilltopper to death, AND the guy on the road with the gang that stopped Daryl, Abe, and Sasha said that they usually introduce themselves by "popping someone off" right away. It was also clear by the end that they knew about ASZ since they could recognize Carol's car by its spikes and they knew the leader's name was Rick. The season finale convinced me even if all Alexandrians had gone out of their way to avoid the Saviors they could see, they still would have been watched and tracked down anyway. As @Silas said, it's Negan's fault, but I voted "it was always going to happen."
     
  9. Mousey

    Mousey Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    I actually don't think it was just a matter of time, so my vote went to "everyone who voted Yes to Proposition Murder in the church," especially those who participated in the raid. So Morgan is practically the only one who bears no responsibility for what came later. Gimple's decision to add the vote + the assault raid in such a personal way, rather than wasting a group of waking Saviors on the road who were already attacking them? That's too big for me to ignore. The threat they've posed to the group on the show is next to none when compared to the comic stuff.

    It's simple, to me. They got cocky. They KO'd the Governor twice, a group of rapists and murderers, a cannibal settlement, put a stupid hospital filled with stupid people in their place, and whipped a bunch of weak NPCs into shape while slaughtering an actual herd of walkers with their own two hands. :lol: It makes sense, at least, why they'd feel powerful and capable.

    Unfortunately for them though, the Saviors are extremely well organized and are actually able to fight, something that has been missing from villain groups so far. That's why I actually liked the show of force in 616, the traps and everything, because it definitely hammered in the impression of how large and connected they are.

    So basically, while I always think Negan would've found them (well, after the quarry herd cleared) and killed somebody from the group because they kept on repeating "he'll kill one of you to make a show of force but then he wants y'all alive to work for him," it doesn't have to play out the way it will in October.
     
  10. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I don't think Morgan is an innocent angel either in this. If the group had gone with his plan, someone still would've died (I am 100% sure). Morgan basically wanted to roll up to the front door and talk to Negan. It just wouldn't have worked. He's free from culpability of the raid and the fallout of that, but in terms of coming up with a less-dumb way of dealing with the threat, I don't think he helped at all.
     
  11. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    To me, the raid situation was about pushing the ongoing series theme of moral grey areas beyond its usual boundaries. A rescue operation for Craig is easily morally justifiable to most people, even with people being killed along the way. The guys Daryl killed on the road were about to kill Abe and Sasha. The preemptive strike/collective punishment angle on the Saviors' satellite outpost, however, is obviously much harder to defend. The thing is, it looks like most of us still agree: Negan would have found and killed at least one of them eventually, regardless of whether they went through that attack or not, and regardless of whether they defended themselves or not. I see no reason to doubt he would have done the "honours" personally either (lest "who's Negan?" continue to echo in people's minds), so while the moral balance might tilt a bit (i.e. whether they "deserve" payback or not), I don't see a difference here. "Career Day" was about as close to predestined event as it gets. Whether they deserved it or not in the eyes of Negan is irrelevant when we know there were plenty of reasons (again, see Doc's post) it was going to happen, even if they hadn't killed any Saviors at all.

    (*edited for clarity because I'd left some things vague and it was bugging me)
     
    #11 Sasha's Living Room, Jul 1, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
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  12. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    When I saw them voting/discussing in the church, I knew the argument Rick was making, "they will come for us" was going to have everyone on board...Rick was right. Eventually, the Saviors would have come and killed someone. How could he not act knowing that was how they roll? Rick and Team Family was supposed to let them choose one of them to beat to death or someone was supposed to volunteer or they were going to draw straws or Rick was going to choose or try to talk him out of it or beg or pray or ..I get why he did what he did and why the others went along with it. I don't forget what happened at the outpost, but the Saviors had a hostage and would have killed him. Rick had to kill one of the Hilltop people because of mess set in motion by the Saviors. Daryl, Abraham, and Sasha would have been dead at the hands of the Saviors...he had plenty evidence that Negan's group was a group unlike his. That they killed for shock value, to terrorize others, not to live, not to protect themselves or the ones they love, but to scare/terrorize people into submission. I don't know what other course of action he (Rick) could have proposed. I agree with Silas, Negan is to blame. Wow, he is horrible.
     
    #12 Katbird, Jul 1, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2016
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  13. Lilly965

    Lilly965 Wig Shopping For Michonne
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    Only one person's fault...Michonne

    She let Rick taste the goodies and the next day man thinks he can conquer the world, listening to hype men Daryl and Abe

    So Michonne's kitty kat is soley blame
    [​IMG]
     
  14. lovingdead

    lovingdead The New Mrs. Grimes

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    This is such a tough call. Rick, the rest of TF, the Alexandrians (yes they are still 'the others' to me for the moment), Hilltop, Negan and the Saviors are all at fault in some way. I think it's a matter of percentages. Rick is the leader. Yes, he put up a vote but his argument inherently holds the most sway and the community trusts his judgment most as the leader of TF who are trusted survivors. TF is partially to blame because they are the most experienced and backed up Rick's proposal. The Alexandrians are to blame because they mostly blindly followed along. Hilltop is at fault because it all started with them coming to TF to negotiate without knowing the whole story about the enemy. And of course Negan and the Saviors are at fault for being terrorist assholes. A confrontation would have eventually happened but if this was all better played Alexandria could have observed their enemy more and had a better plan of either attack and/or defense.

    I would divide blame roughly this way:

    Rick 10%
    TF 10%
    Alexandrians 10%
    Hilltop 20%
    Negan 30%
    Saviors 20%
     
  15. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Heh,heh,heh (trying to capture the James Evans of *Good Times* laugh). Wouldn't be the first time in human history that things went sideways 'cause of the good-good. Juicy got him crazy!
     
  16. FLNatural

    FLNatural Caressing Eugene's Mullet

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    I'm gritting my teeth so hard right now. I'm trying...I'm really trying.
     
  17. FLNatural

    FLNatural Caressing Eugene's Mullet

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    This is very refreshing.
     
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  18. QueenTee

    QueenTee Ricktator

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    I voted for everyone being at fault.
    The plan was to go after Negan and his men in order to make a deal with the Hilltop. They were fully aware ahead of time that someone could die in the process. I know the saviors had been tracking them for awhlile, so a confrontation was inevitable but one of the first things Negan said to Rick was "You killed my people and for that you gotta pay."
     
  19. QueenTee

    QueenTee Ricktator

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    I love you for this:lol::lol:
     
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  20. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    I agree with @Doctor Grimes grimes. It was inevitable.

    In fact you'll call me crazy but I think, given the eventuality of it, that Rick and his group did the right think and may have saved more of TF lives by their actions. I'll explain.

    Keeping the incident with Abrahams group in mind, and knowing that Negan and his men always, always, kills one person as a show of force when they first meet you, the reality is every time small groups from TF left Alexandria on runs, they were at risk. Even if they had never gone to Hilltop and been told about Negan, the fact of the matter is they were running out of food. Therefore small groups were venturing further out to try to get food and supplies for the community. In my opinion, if any of those groups encountered Negan's men one or two people from said group would be killed. Remember, it was not just Rick and Daryl going on runs, but Heath, Tara, likely Glenn, at times Michonne, Abe, Sasha, Eugene, Rosita, Carl and Enid would leave etc. etc. Now if they never went to hilltop they would never have known about Negan and would only become aware when they started losing people on runs, without knowing who or what these people were. In my opinion they may have lost three or four people before they got a handle on what was really going on.

    By striking first, they not only took out at least 50 of their enemy's fighting force, substantially reducing their threat (although a lot still remains), ALL of Neegan's men now know these people belong to Alexandria. So after the LV happens, groups can venture out to find food and supplies to share (yes to share with Negan) but it's without the risk of someone (or 2) from each group getting killed, because Negans men know this community is already "controlled" by Negan, so they're "safe" as long as they fall in line.

    I also disagree with the argument that they should have done more recon. The only thing they could have done was possibly watch the Silo to see the comings and goings BUT it appeared to me that those men and women lived there (I recall Paula calling it their home). So playing devil's advocate, if they watched the Silo for a day or two and don't see much people coming or going because, once again, most of the people seemed to live there, Rick and co would have then simply gone in and killed them as they planned (and did) in the first place. Still not knowing that there was a larger force. I don't see how they could have done anything different.

    I'm also confused by a comment a poster elsewhere said that Negan is pissed because they killed his men in their sleep. There was a gunfight after the initial kills and there were no survivors from the Silo or Paula's group so only the viewers knew that Rick's group killed them in their sleep, unless I'm missing something.
     
    #20 Caribbeanqueen11, Jul 1, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016