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Discussion/Meta Carol Responsible for Sam's Death?

Discussion in '6x09: No Way Out' started by Doctor Grimes, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I've seen some people around the fandom blaming Carol for what happened to Sam. Do you think this is fair? If so, why?

    I don't at all. I think Jessie is wholly responsible for Sam's death. Honestly Carol telling him that story should've made Sam more wary for the walkers.

    It was unfortunate they decided to play that voice over.
     
  2. ThatGrimesGirl

    ThatGrimesGirl Survivor of Many Disasters

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    I think Jessie was at fault. She should have insisted he went with FG or went with him to the church. But then she wouldn't have died, so I am conflicted there. Carol shouldn't have said what she said to Sam, but I don't think she caused his death because he shouldn't have been there in the first place. She certainly didn't help matters though.
     
  3. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I dunno, I saw Carol's scare tactic with Sam as necessary for what she was trying to accomplish at the time. She wanted to silence Sam, and frightening him was the most effective way to do so.

    It definitely didn't cause Sam's death though. Like you said, Sam being there in the first place caused his doom. Jessie was the one who allowed that to happen. She should've insisted Sam go with Gabe, but she didn't.
     
  4. Bazooka Jane

    Bazooka Jane On a pirate ship
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    Carol isn't responsible for that shit; his mother who didn't drag his ass into the church is responsible. I'm all for treating kids like human beings with their own wants and desires, but when the chips are down, you fucking tell you kid what to do and they fucking do it. Like Nicotero said, Jessie sealed all their fates by not insisting he goes.
     
  5. NotAScientist

    NotAScientist Hiding in Dale's RV

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    Jessie and her boys should have all been in the church as it should have been obvious that they would have been of no help to the group. I fail to see how Carol is responsible for that but to each their own I guess. lol
     
  6. Silas

    Silas Beloved Side Piece
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    Would he have died if Carol hadn't told him that story? I can't definitely say yes or no. That does seem to be what pushed him over the edge. But would he have been so close to the edge already had Jessie been a better mother? I don't know that either. Without the story, he might have lived. Without Jessie's crap parenting, he might have lived. When Carol told Sam that story she had no idea who Sam was or the damage it could do later on. When the group allowed Sam to stay, they also didn't know Carol had told him that story.

    So I'm gonna call it as a mixture of the two, not really sure which was more of the deciding factor.

    One thing folks are missing, Rick stated he need them all to drive. Gabriel had already checked out, so he was already down one man. He needed Jessie and possibly Ron too. So there was a reason for her to tag along. I don't really mind that they let Sam continue on. He'd held it together for awhile already. Was it a good idea? Probably not, but I don't think it was quite as unreasonable as it seems. He'd already walked awhile by that point and came out of it feeling braver. Stand there and argue with him which would attract walkers? Or let him tag along when he'd just proved he could do it?

    I simply think it was a mixture of unfortunate events. Have a sheltered kid, throw in a sprinkle of scary stories, a hefty handful of bad parenting and bam - you've got the recipe for a little kid too screwed to function.
     
  7. Iguessiamhere

    Iguessiamhere Survivor of Many Disasters
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    Nope. I feel that Carol isn't ultimately the cause of his death, she definitely was the hype man. He was scared kid and her words amplify those fears. Sam's parents are to blame. Sam was reared in an abusive environment. He was a scared kid. Jessie as the surviving parent in that moment is to blame. Jessie really didn't see that her son was in distress. She didn't seem to understand her children. Her priority should been her kids, getting them to safety.
     
  8. MidnightRose76

    MidnightRose76 Slopping Pigs

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    Carol is not responsible for Sam's death. That blame goes to Jessie and it started long before they were trying to escape the herd. She never taught Sam anything about surviving in that world or the realities of the world. The whole "it's all pretend" mentality was bullshit and is ultimately what lead to his death.
     
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  9. thenidefyyoustars

    thenidefyyoustars Vault-Tec's #1 Richonne Shipper
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    They should have spent time to teach him about walkers instead of locking him in his room at the first whiff of danger. I blame Jessie and the other adults for letting him stay naive and afraid instead of teaching him.
     
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  10. cupsofmarmalade

    cupsofmarmalade Searching for Sophia

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    What @Bazooka Jane said. Jessie’s incompetence as a parent. Plain and simple. The way I see it is Sam, and the entire Anderson clan, died in 6.08 when he started calling out for his mom. The only reason we got the Carol voice over is because the writers are also incompetent and think that continuity in storytelling is an option rather than a requirement. Carol didn’t make Sam scared of the walkers, she simply used his fear as a means of getting her own way. The responsibility began and ended with Jessie.
     
  11. Walkingonsunshine

    Walkingonsunshine The Ones Who Live
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    I blame how long it took them to walk. Like damn how far were those cars?! I would probably pass out from exhaustion if it was taking me hours just to walk half a mile to a gate.
     
  12. Lyra_Nation

    Lyra_Nation Young, scrappy, and hungry
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    I was about to say something along these lines. Everyone who was out there in that lineup is a bit responsible for Sam's death. Why was everyone reacting so slowly and acting like they couldn't hold a little boy still?! *Eyeroll*

    But yes, it was mostly Jessie's fault. She should have made him go with FG.
     
  13. Ship Verse

    Ship Verse I.D.G.A.F.
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    No, Carol is not to blame, but Carol's scare tactic just backfired. I even think she tried to rectify the situation in how she treated Sam after she said what she said. Sam's death was solely caused by his mother by...
    1. Not teaching him anything (just pretend). Not emotionally supporting him, but instead coddling him.
    2. Not going with Father G. Just go. Two cars is just fine, just fucking Go.
    3. Not scooping his ass up and walking. Ya'll moving at a snails pace anyway.
     
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  14. MamaGrimes

    MamaGrimes 100% Certified Shipper Trash
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    Manipulative writing is to blame for Sam's death at the end of the day, let's face it.

    But, no, Carol is not to blame. Carol told that story to Sam that night in order to keep him quiet and to protect her extended family. She didn't do it thinking she would cause him to freeze in the middle of a herd.

    Sam was completely unprepared for this world and he is a kid. The fact that they allowed him to continue on after FG broke off with Judith was the manipulative writing part and made me roll my eyes. But they were determined to have their iconic scene their way so it played out how it played out.

    I'm not happy they used Carol's voiceover to spur the chain of events but I find her acquitted of any fault.
     
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  15. forevermichonne

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    I think she is a small, small percentage, like 3% responsible because that's what riled Sam up in the first place, him remembering what she said, everything else is Jessie even putting him through that situation. I don't care what you say, Sam, you're not in a place to walk around Walkers.
    Carol is the only person who him how things were straight on, he needed that.
    But Carol is going to feel fully responsible anyways. This show wants to break her lol, that's why Morgan brought up her child.
     
  16. Consigliere

    Consigliere Caressing Eugene's Mullet

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    Soon as I heard Carol voice in Sam head I knew folks were going to take it there...He was paralyzed by fear in hearing what she constantly said to him to scare the crap out of him to keep his mouth shut. I wouldn't say she was responsible but he was a scared little boy w/ no proper guidance.
     
  17. CordeliaMathews

    CordeliaMathews Babysitting Judith

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    No. Carol is the only one who tried to prepare him at all for the outside world. I don't see how her words could have been scarier than the actual reality of what was outside.

    Sam died because Jessie did not have enough authority over him to make him listen to her. The kid did not respect her. This is a common problem that a lot of parents have so its not even something I judge her too harshly on, but it is what it is.
     
  18. Blueridge84

    Blueridge84 Walker Bait

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    Carol's words are what caused him to become paralyzed with fear. I have watched Carol go from being the abused to the becoming the abuser throughout the seasons. I think they did a poor job with the story line but I do think the voice over of Carol was important to the story. I agree that Jessie and the two boys should have gone to the church instead since it was so dangerous and they were all pretty unskilled with their fighting and I think that it was an easy way to kill off three nonessential characters. It was good to see Daryl again though.
     
  19. Empress

    Empress Permanently mourning Glenn Rhee
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    Honestly, I don't blame Carol, Jessie or little Sam himself, as much as I disliked this entire arc, and the Andersons, I'm not going to shred Jessie for it. Should've, could've, would've, she was not prepared for that world and neither were her sons. Firearm and self defensive tactics they should have been practicing from the jump, I put myself in that situation, and would I take out my two babies to kill walkers in the woods for real world experience, when I went basically straight from normal life to life behind those walls? Where I felt safe and secure with food and a whole building full of weaponry? Where I didn't have to risk their lives, just for practice? Unlikely. Is that a prudent way to be? No, but I feel like it's realistic.

    They needed real world experience, that could have never been replicated behind steel walls, and all the gun practice in the world wasn't going to prepare them for dozens of walkers swarming the community and devouring half the town. They just weren't ready. Sam was a child at the end of the day, and although I do believe that Carols words contributed to his panic after seeing that little boy walker, ultimately he was never going to make it through that hoard. If I was going to blame anyone, it would be 100% Jessie for the simple fact that she KNEW her son was not able to cope, he locked himself upstairs and refused to come down, not until he absolutely had to. Not for food, not for anything. She knew he was terrified to his core and if he couldn't even come downstairs in his own house for a glass of water, how could he make it surrounded by the dead? Jessie was a poor mother, there's no doubt about that, and it wasn't the time to let him step up to the plate and 'become brave'. She absolutely should have sent him to the church, but again, if I were a mom, completely sheltered in this high stress situation, a big part of me would want him right by my side, not miles away in a town over run, hiding out in a church where anything could go wrong. She made a bad call, but it wasn't black and white to me. This is coming from one of the biggest Jessie/Jessick haters of all time too, I love any chance to rip her apart, but this one was more just unfortunate to me rather than anybody's fault. He was just a baby.
     
  20. day dreamer

    day dreamer Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    The only thing Carol is guilty of is rattling him. The blame solely rests on Jessie and Pete's shoulders. Instead of preparing their children for what's out there, they coddled and hid them. Look at the kids trained at the prison. Lizzie and Mika handled themselves well. Carl handles himself well. Beth handled herself well at Grady too. All because their parents didn't continue to keep things from them. Pete and Jessie should've done that. It's not Carol's responsibility. I think the use of her story in that scene felt forced and was used in a way to "split the vote" so to speak with the Carol vs Morgan and whose philosophy is correct.