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Discussion in 'Season 5' started by Armte, Jan 30, 2016.

  1. Armte

    Armte Schadenfreude is my Aesthetic
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    Discussion for 5.13 begins here.
    As Deanna throws a party for the new arrivals, Carol comes up with a plan to get the group's weapons back. Meanwhile, Daryl bonds with Aaron, and Sasha struggles to cope.


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    #1 Armte, Jan 30, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
  2. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    So someone brought this up in another forum and I am trying to think of what the scene means all over again -- I wish it was made clear.

    I'm talking about the infamous "Rick goes for his gun" scene.

    In this scene, we see Rick come outside and wave hi to Jessie and Pete. They both flash each other their "A" stamps. As Jessie and Pete walk away, Rick reaches behind to touch the gun in his waistband (note: he doesn't reach for it like he's going to pull it out, more like he's checking to see if it's still there).

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    When I first saw this scene, I thought it was supposed to be a nod to Shane scoping out Rick in "Wildfire". Just like this gifset illustrates:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    (source)

    Was it Rick having a flash of green-eyed jealousy when he saw Jessie with Pete? Does he see Pete as a romantic rival he wants to take out? (Especially if Rick is deluded enough at this point to kind of see Jessie as his wife proxy.)

    However, later, I thought to myself, "That's ridiculous. Even at his lowest, Rick wouldn't consider killing a man over a woman he's just met." Like... it's silly. That's not in Rick's character -- even when he was riding the crazy train.

    (Then again, the lyrics that played when Rick was caressing the wall with his crazy eyes were about a man who'd lost the love of his life, so, who the heck knows.)

    But let's go back to the fact it's crazy to assume Rick is that into Jessie (because, let's face it, he's not, nor was he, and even if he was he's not that psychotic). Maybe this scene was showing how he got the spidey sense something was "off" with Pete. Deanna told Rick he had good instincts -- so this could've been foreshadowing the fact Pete was a bad egg before the grand reveal. Rick just perceived "threat, threat, threat!", so he reached for his gun, then kind of kicked himself like, "No, dummy, he's just a guy out on a stroll with his wife. Stop being crazy." Then, his creepy wall caressing was a nod to the fact the threat is outside, not inside.

    My husband, on the other hand, saw this scene as Rick touching the gun as a sort of reminder of what he was there to do. Because right before he touched his gun, he was sharing his "A" stamp (which Sam said made Rick "one of us" or whatever) with a smile. Rick reaching for the gun is a reminder to himself, "Don't lose sight of the goal here -- I need to make sure I can takeover this place." Rick is wondering whether he can kill these people. If he could kill innocent couples strolling down the sidewalk if he had to do it.

    So sort of a "don't get lured into a false sense of security" moment. A member on reddit said that perhaps it was Rick thinking back to what he'd told Michonne earlier about "handing authority over to strangers."

    I googled the question of what this scene means and I saw about equal numbers of people sharing these three different interpretations. What's wild is each of these interpretations is so different, but no one knows what the heck it means or was supposed to mean.

    In one case, Rick is being a total Shane-like douche by having a flash of wanting to kill some dude he doesn't even know over a woman he just met.

    In another case, it's demonstrating Rick still has sharp instincts when it comes to detecting bad people.

    And the other is more of a sad reflection of Rick straddling the divide between "us" and "them".

    This show can be so infuriating sometimes because there's no right or wrong answer, but the way a scene can be viewed is so wildly different from person to person. I wish the scenes could be a little more clear.
     
  3. SHEAKENBAKEN

    SHEAKENBAKEN We're The Ones Who Live
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    It pains me to say this about my dearly beloved Rick, but I think he was straight up having an itchy trigger finger. He wanted to whip out that pistol and shoot Pete so bad, but he had enough strength to prevent himself. I've never got any other vibe from that scene. D:
     
  4. Michroolz

    Michroolz Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I thought that scene was more about Rick/Pete rather than Rick/Jessie.

    In their first meeting, Pete gave Rick the most unwelcoming welcome (to Alexandria but step off) you ever saw. Rick is in immediate dislike with Pete.

    He then observes Pete and family playing happy families (husband/pillar of the community, desirable wife and loving mother, and luxurious home) while he's spent the last how many months sleeping in cow shit, eating dog and avoiding rapists and cannibals.
    Imo Rick is not jealous because of Jessie but because he covets what Pete has especially as he spotlights all of Rick's losses, failures and shortcomings. The great irony is that the family looked happy but beneath the facade, the husband/father was a brute, the wife/mother was insipid and neglectful and Alexandria's failings were soon revealed.

    Someone, a while back, wrote that the A on their hands was a nod to the book 'The Scarlet Letter' where the main character has to wear a red letter A as a sign of her crime of adultery so it's possible the writers were trying to make those allusions too.

    So I guess at the end of the day, Rick really was channelling Shane.
     
  5. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I remember thinking the "A" might've stood for Scarlet Letter as well, but then no adultery ever happened between Rick and Jessie, so I just sort of assumed it might've been a very loose literary nod.

    I think the "A" also represented the train car. Rick says in "Conquer" that he was still inside of it, at Terminus, and I think the "A" represented Rick's fight/flight survival instinct to view everything as a threat. But then at that party, after Sam gave him that stamp, the "A" came to mean Alexandria, this new community, and Rick is grappling with switching from that survivor battling the elements to a welcome civilian.

    That's why I lean more towards my husband's interpretation of the scene these days myself. I think the scene was more to represent Rick trying not to let himself get too comfortable with Alexandria and remind himself of what he was ultimately there for. That's why he pets at the walls at the end of the episode. It's another reminder of what's out there. And that sooner or later those things will get inside. (Which is what happens at the end of "Conquer")

    Although I do think Rick never liked Pete. I think he did get a weird vibe from him, but I don't know if it was necessarily jealousy or anything like that (which is how I originally took the scene). Pete was rude to him in "Remember" and at the party, and Rick definitely picked up on the micro-hostility Pete was throwing his way. But I don't think Rick thought anything was "off" about Pete and Jessie's relationship until Carol told him about the abuse.
     
  6. Michroolz

    Michroolz Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I definitely think your husband is onto something. The only thing that makes me pause is the wall patting or, I should say, the Bee Gees song that accompanied the wall patting, the lyrics of which, I remember, Gimple touted as being significant and possibly romantic. This, added to AL's comments about thinking of Lori and Shane at the time, leads me to the Rick/Pete conclusion.
     
  7. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I don't think Gimple ever said anything about the song that I can remember, but the music supervisor said it was a deliberate choice by Gimple to capture Rick's strange and eerie headspace (nothing about romance that I can recall but it meant Rick was out of it).

    Andy definitely said Rick was exhibiting Shane-like characteristics in 5B, especially in "Try" when he's parroting some phrases Shane said in "Pretty Much Dead Already". I do think that bleeds into how Rick was acting irrationally, had an interest in Jessie (when she was married), and his ardent desire to assert his authority over those he thought weren't doing enough.

    But I think Rick skirted that edge. Rewatching the scene, I just don't think Rick was at that point of contemplating killing a man so he could get Jessie. It just doesn't make sense (and that's why my husband was like, "What?!" when I originally told him that was my interpretation lmao sometimes my husband's more removed POV is helpful). But yeah, my husband has a point. Shane had basically "claimed" Rick's family by "Wildfire". Shane was in love and sleeping with Lori then Rick came along and ruined it. So Shane's desire to murder Rick kind of made some sense (even though it was wrong). Rick had just met Jessie a few days before and hadn't exhibited any possessive or loving attention toward her. It just wouldn't make sense for Rick to have the same murderous jealousy Shane did under the circumstances when Rick wasn't as far gone as Shane.

    So I think it was a definite scene parallel to Shane, just like Rick shaving in the mirror was meant to mirror Shane shaving in "Save the Last One", but I am not sure the intention was the same. Just like Shane shaved his head feeling guilty (so he wanted to distance himself from the old him), Rick shaved as a return to form. Shane was deliberately transforming into something different, but Rick was psychologically regressing (aka stepping into an old skin as opposed to a new one).
     
  8. QueenTee

    QueenTee Ricktator

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    I remember someone stating (I forgot where, it could've been TTD) that the scene of Rick going for his gun was symbolic of him trying to takeover or claim what he feels is his. I absolutely hate that theory and completely refuse to believe it.
    I just intercepted that scene to provide a juxtaposition of how much being out in the elements has changed Rick vs the old world. Rick and the group have somewhat evolved to take out any possible threats, whereas the residences of Alexandria have remained sheltered and oblivious of those outside threats.
     
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  9. ReeciePiecey

    ReeciePiecey Nestled in Rick's Beard
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    very interesting, I didn't know there were so many interpretations. I think I lean more toward the reminding himself not to get to comfortable/being torn between accepting the safety and staying on guard. I saw the A as a nod to the A on the train cars. Rick's big concern was that Alexandria was another trap. Another safe haven that turned out to be a lie.

    And in a way he was right, Alexandria parallels Terminus in a lot of ways. The residents there are so naive to the ways of the world and helpless that they are essentially lambs to be slaughtered by whatever threat comes by, whether that's the walkers on the outside of the gates or the wolves. Even Carl voiced that the people there were weak and he didn't want them to become weak too.

    It's also interesting that the material that makes up the gates it so similar to the metal on the train cars. When Rick was caressing the wall and listening to the outside it was probably very similar to his time in the train car at Terminus if he closed his eyes. I don't think Rick was there yet with Pete. He didn't turn murderous towards him until Pete wouldn't respect his authority. Even before their fight Rick told Pete he would need to move out. Killing Pete wasn't his first option, I do think it was the last though.
     
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  10. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Yeah I don't ever recall any of the EPs or actors saying anything about that. Maybe it was a guest on TTD, because I think most of the BTS interview material for 5.13 was about the party scene.
     
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  11. MrsG

    MrsG Licking Rick clean.
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    This is how I interpreted, too. Rick was in straight Savage Rick mode! When he saw Pete and Jessie, he saw weaklings that he would soon overthrow. He smiled in their faces, gave a friendly smile while cheekily displaying the 'A' on his hand, knowing full well he was armed waiting for an opening to take the town when need be. He was caressing that gun possessively with a snarl watching them walk away oblivious to it all. Rick was a paranoid man on a stealth mission. It was survival of the fittest in Rick's brain and he knew the ASZers couldn't pass muster. :catchemall:
     
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  12. Michroolz

    Michroolz Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    One article, that mentions the song in a possible romantic sense. This isn't the Gimple article I was thinking of though. I may or may not try to find it

    http://radio.com/2015/03/08/walking-dead-bee-gees/

    Rick's gun grab could possibly be put down to his 'I don't take chances any more' philosophy. Who knows? It's obviously clear in Gimples' mind.

    I feckin' hate this arc.
     
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  13. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Yeah that's the article I am thinking of. I don't know if he means romantic in the way we think of romance though. (Like passion, love, etc.)

    Romantic can also mean idealized in the arts. So kind of fairy tale-like and beautiful. Kind of the opposite of Gothic in some ways. However, I am confused because the song itself is very sad. I don't think it's Romantic or necessarily Gothic.

    I do think the song was meant to illustrate where Rick's head was at, but I am not sure if that has any bearing on the gun scene or not (except that Rick is living in two words: then and now). Most of the lyrics deal with nostalgia. A man thinking about his old life and how the woman he loved is gone.

    Where is the sun
    That shone on my head
    The sun in my life
    It is dead
    It is dead
    Where is the light
    That would play
    In my streets
    And where are the friends
    I could meet
    I could meet

    Where are the girls
    I left far behind
    The spicks and the specks
    Of the girls on my mind
    Where is the sun
    That shone on my head
    The sun in my life
    It is dead
    It is dead

    Where are the girls
    I left far behind
    The spicks and the specks
    Of the girls on my mind

    Where are the girls
    I left far behind
    The spicks and the specks
    Of the girls on my mind

    Where is the girl I loved
    All along
    The girl that I loved
    She's gone
    She's gone

    All of my life
    I call yesterday
    The spicks and the specks
    Of my life 've gone away
    All of my life
    I call yesterday
    The spicks and the specks
    Of my life 've gone away
    Everybody

    Spicks and Specks
    Spicks and Specks
     
  14. Rickdickulous Trash

    Rickdickulous Trash Bring me the Samurai...
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    I agree with this.
    I also like the Scarlet Letter reference
     
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  15. Rickdickulous Trash

    Rickdickulous Trash Bring me the Samurai...
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    Thanks for this
     
  16. Rickdickulous Trash

    Rickdickulous Trash Bring me the Samurai...
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    Good morning MrsG!
     
  17. Michroolz

    Michroolz Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I don't follow your point. Are you referring to the style of the song? How Rick is regarding Jessie? The state of Rick's mind? And how does that tie in with verses 2 to 5?
     
  18. Rickdickulous Trash

    Rickdickulous Trash Bring me the Samurai...
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    Can I just be petty for one minute... Please forgive me but...

    Look at how horrible she looks in this outfit...

    I thought Michonne's dress was bad but damn..

    And Rick just looks...Fine AF but crazy trying to play normal...
     
  19. MrsG

    MrsG Licking Rick clean.
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    Hey girl! :thumbsup:
     
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  20. Michroolz

    Michroolz Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Yep, Rick looks all round cray-cray.

    I think in the case of this episode, petty is completely in order. They did Michonne so wrong in this.:rant:
     
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