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Poll Has the group gone too far?

Discussion in '6x12: Not Tomorrow Yet' started by Doctor Grimes, Mar 7, 2016.

?

Has the group gone too far?

  1. No. They are just doing what they need to do to survive.

    15 vote(s)
    39.5%
  2. Yes. They were killing people in their sleep for a cow and some food. It's wrong.

    1 vote(s)
    2.6%
  3. They're close to crossing the line, but haven't crossed it yet.

    10 vote(s)
    26.3%
  4. I don't care. Just pass me some popcorn and let me watch the bloodbath.

    12 vote(s)
    31.6%
  1. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I've seen a lot of commentary spring up in critic reviews about the group on the moral spectrum.

    Did they cross a line? Have they gone full Termite? Full Joe?

    There's no question they have become mercenaries. Killing other human beings for pay. It's pretty horrific when thought about in those terms.

    We saw our group knifing people in the skull while they slept. This was done to emphasize just how "low" they had sunken. It was also not a coincidence they chose this episode to have Carol making a list of her kills, having flashes of guilt over the blood on her hands. That this was the first episode where Glenn had to take lives.

    Was our group the bad guys? Did they cross the moral even horizon? Are they too far gone? Rick's speech was eerily reminiscent of the Governor's before he launched the attack on the prison.

    Or was the group justified? We know the Saviors are bad news, and this world is dog eat dog.
     
  2. Michele

    Michele Code Poet
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    I don't think they crossed the line. They had to do something. Not because the saviors would have found them eventually but because it was the easiest way (from their perspective ) to get a great deal out of Gregory and get some food.
    All those people tend to forget that the ASZ actually actively tried to plant their own food and nothing grew. So they were in a dire situation.
    The fault about the sloppy plan fall actually on Daryl and Abe's shoulders because they minimize the threat.
    As for the killing in their sleep if it wasn't them doing he killing it would be the saviors. The Hilltop already established that Began and his men had low morals and weren't up for negociations
    So no they are not too far gone they just bite more than they could chew.
     
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  3. Lolololove3

    Lolololove3 Den Mother

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    If I didn't know who the saviors were and how evil they can be, I'd think TF were straight savage for what they did. Even knowing who the saviors are I thought it was pretty cold but then I saw the pictures of Lucille victims and remembered that they're pieces of shit who got what they deserved.
     
  4. Clutterbuck

    Clutterbuck Finding Bigfoot™
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    I won't lie, they were SAVAGE. But it's not a Terminus or Claimers situation; the Saviors are bad news. It's not like TF enjoyed it or anything, besides Glenn and Heath you could see it in Rick's face after he stabbed the first guy. They didn't just go out and kill some random group they know nothing about for the hell of it or for kicks. Granted they don't know everything about the Saviors but they have enough intel from Jesus to know they're not exactly killing a bunch of monks.
     
    #4 Clutterbuck, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
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  5. HustleBunnee

    HustleBunnee Nestled in Rick's Beard
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    I thought for a while about this, and I came to the conclusion, that No, they did not go to far. Let's not forget that Abe, Sasha and Darly were confronted by them FIRST and almost died. If you think that didn't put a Bullseye on TF, you are sadly mistaken. TF won round one, and the Saviors were already waiting to find them for round 2. I think they may have been stalking them earlier anyway.
     
  6. Armte

    Armte Schadenfreude is my Aesthetic
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    I agree with Clutterbuck they were gangster as hell but this world requires that from them if they want to survive. My vote was for pass the popcorn. My moral compass and concern for TF will only get activated if they start killing innocent/non-evil folks. Otherwise I am good.
     
    #6 Armte, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2016
  7. Ship Verse

    Ship Verse I.D.G.A.F.
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    They're close but not there yet. The thing is, it was dire, the Saviors are bad news but what we've come to find is people will do what they have to do to survive. We don't know each of those people. Some could have been forced there, we don't know every single circumstance and it is unrealistic to think that they should. But there was Tara, there was even Morgan who was a killer. Everyone has a story. It is a get them before they get us scenario, but when you are killing people in their sleep, you're pushing the limits. That you can take these lives just because. So I mean we know our side, we know what is at stake, but we can't just sit here and wait around either. They will only cross the line when it starts to get fun. This isn't fun. It's survival.
     
  8. MamaGrimes

    MamaGrimes 100% Certified Shipper Trash
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    I wrote a thing....

    It’s Not Mercenary

    Last night’s episode may have been jarring for viewers as it painted Rick’s group as rather mercenary in nature. Commit a preemptive strike? Push knives into skulls of the living? Slit throats and riddle people with bullets?

    What has our group come to?

    Are they just as bad as the Saviors?

    I say no. They’re not pure guns for hire. They’re so much more than that. They’re survivors who have been burned one time too many by unfinished business.

    Remember the governor? When they failed to kill him in 3x16, Michonne hunted him for months on her own (with some assistance from Daryl). But it just wasn’t a priority for the others as they built the community at the prison.

    Read the rest here
     
    #8 MamaGrimes, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
  9. WalkerVoodoo

    WalkerVoodoo Michonne's Shadow
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    No, they didn't go to far. By that point they already knew what the Saviors were about so there wasn't really a point in attempting negotiations.

    What people who are criticizing TF seem to be forgetting is that Rick never started this fight. So far all Rick knows about the Saviors is that they're a group who go around extorting communities, killing delivery guys, turning community embers on each other, taking hostages, beating 16 year olds to death and who threatened Abe, Sasha and Daryl with death if they didn't lead them to Alexandria. It's pretty clear that the minute another group of Saviors gets wind of Alexandria's existence they'll be there ready to cause some damage.

    Rick had two choices. He could wait till the Saviors attacked again (which was inevitable at that point) while they were low on food and energy, or he could make the deal with Hilltop, feed his people and take the battle to them. Imo Rick made the better choice of the two.

    I get that the images TF killing people in their sleep is pretty disturbing, but what were they expected to do? I doubt all the people complaining about the manner The Saviors were killed would be ok with the group waking them up, announcing that they were their to fight, give them time to pick up their weapons and only then strike. They set the fight up so there would be minimal loss on their end and seeing as they all made it out alive, I'd say that's a win.
     
  10. DirtieBirdie

    DirtieBirdie Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    While the attack on Negan's men made me uncomfortable at best and a little sick to my stomach at worst, they were not wrong. We weren't meant to be 100% ok with it just like TF wasn't. They clearly did what they had to do, albeit reluctantly. Rick gave them all an opportunity to back out or come up with an alternative but they didn't (save for Morgan, of course).

    They are not the Termites (and I've been hearing/reading that a lot today). They didn't lure people to them only to sadistically taunt, kill, and eat their victims. They were efficient yes, and seemingly cold, but even Rick (he who has had a seemingly endless number of people's blood on his hands, literally) seemed a bit shaken after his first sleep kill.

    And they weren't just acting on Jesus's word alone. SAD were seconds away from being sadistically killed by Negan's men. They had every reason to believe they would be the next targets.

    Despite Rick's mantra "this is how we eat", he also emphasized that this is how they survive. Aaron was right. They couldn't let another Wolf incident occur again, and that's exactly what would've happened.

    That's not to say that I'm not completely terrified of what will happen. Bad shit is about to go down and we may never recover.
     
  11. Silas

    Silas Beloved Side Piece
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    Absolutely not. I'm pretty ruthless myself but The Saviors had this coming to them. I feel like once folks really see what Negan is capable of this won't even be a question. They'll be wishing TF had killed them in an even more brutal way.

    I understand why it was jarring to watch. And the "too far gone" theme is as commonplace in any TWD discussion as a walker is in the show. But I don't even think the show is going in that direction at the moment, at least not for the group as a whole. If anything, we've finally reached a point where we can say that Team Family is definitely not too far gone. That's what their entire transition into ASZ was about. It was about healing and I don't see that can of worms being opened again any time soon. Maybe for specific characters but not the entirety of TF.

    While they love to parallel Rick with villains and he was very Governor-like in last week's episode there's still a huge difference between the two men. Rick isn't killing an innocent group for personal gain or even revenge. He's killing a group killers, killers who kill for personal gain. If Team Family ever decides to take out a group of utterly innocent people, then we're crossing a line. Even without the deal about food, The Saviors still deserved to die. They pretty much steal your resources and kill sixteen year olds.

    Let's face it, TF has killed for lesser reasons. Rick left OBG (I hate to even mention it) to die. At the farm, the majority of the group agreed to killing Randall, a boy that may have been dangerous for all they knew. I'm sure there's more examples but that's off the top of my head real quick. Anyway, the point is, I doubt few people would even question if the Saviors needed to die so I'm not sure why so many people think this raid made the group too far gone. In a show that's been full of moral ambiguity, there's nothing ambiguous (imo) about whether or not Negan and crew need to be taken out. Killing a group of killers in their sleep seems far more appropriate than agreeing to shoot a possibly innocent boy in the head. So why the fuss now, ya know?
     
  12. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I don't think they went too far. I believe the juxtaposition of our group killing with the photos of Lucille victims was meant to remind the viewer at a critical moment, "These are the people are group are dealing with; they may be killing people in their sleep, but these people have done horrific things and will come for our people next."

    Even Rick was hesitant. He didn't like what they were doing either.

    It was hard seeing our group so cold and savage, but they did what they had to do.
     
  13. Appetence

    Appetence Eternally failing at productivity bc TITTD
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    I don't care. I'm an asshole.

    Pass the popcorn, please!
     
  14. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    source: dailytwdgifs

    Just absolutely savage. But I will say, throughout the slaughter, they retained their humanity. They're not reveling in the murder -- it clearly weighs heavily on them.
     
  15. DanNintendoMan

    DanNintendoMan The ship's cook

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    I didn't think we'd ever see Glenn killing another living person on the show since it never happened in the comics. That scene was gut-wrenching, sad and intriguing at the same time because you can tell he wants to hold onto his humanity, but unfortunately, that doesn't count for much in the new world.

    Damn, Gimple. I didn't know you had it in ya to break our hearts like that.
     
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  16. CordeliaMathews

    CordeliaMathews Babysitting Judith

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    I think they came close, but did not cross a line.

    They were not just going on Jesus's word, they had confirmation from Sasha, Abraham, and Daryl, and then the story was further confirmed when the two men came out to retrieve Gregory's Intel. I think the Intel was sufficient to conclude that the Saviors did need to die, however I will say that they were lucky that their only appeared to be soldiers at that base.

    I wonder if we would have felt differently about the plan if these people had children who they kept at the camp with them, or just other innocents who weren't involved in the killing in general. They did not have a lot of information on the base itself, and so innocents could have been easily mixed up with criminals. I wonder how the group would have handled the situation then, as this is often an issue in real life.
     
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  17. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    That's a great question. I do wonder what they would have done had innocents been at the outpost as well. If some of the soldiers had brought their kids. I mean, I guess the onus would be on those soldiers for bringing their kids somewhere dangerous, but that's a tough call.

    I have no idea what they would have done had the situation become even more muddy with innocents being in the crossfire.
     
  18. Clutterbuck

    Clutterbuck Finding Bigfoot™
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    I can't fathom them gunning down innocents. They didn't enjoy what they were doing as it was. The people were asleep(very conveniently all men as killing dudes is likely easier to swallow for the audience) or actively firing(some women in this case) on them. I think if there had been children there they would've either taken them back to the ASZ or had Jesus take them to the Hilltop. There are way too many parents or parents to be in the group to even consider anything else, I think, no matter who those hypothetical children belong to.

    I was going to say leave the kids and assume that others would come around to collect them but then I remembered they don't know that that's an outpost; they don't know about the Sanctuary.
     
  19. DirtieBirdie

    DirtieBirdie Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Exactly, which is why the argument that they are just as bad as The Governor or the Termites is faulty. The gravity of what they are doing is written all over their faces. Every one of them.
     
  20. CordeliaMathews

    CordeliaMathews Babysitting Judith

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    If that was an option, I am sure they would try and save the children. Realistically, they would be looking at child soldiers, armed and ready to fight against them. Compared to how it could have been the writers went easy on the audience. I am personally grateful for it, since that episode filled me with enough anxiety as it was. My point was more that when one decides to take out an entire group of people like The group decided to do, it is usually not that clean cut.