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Discussion/Meta It's a Chess Game

Discussion in 'Speculation' started by Doctor Grimes, Nov 13, 2016.

  1. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Since this has been scattered about, I'd figure I'd compile it into one thread. This takes into account the "chess board" theory and the "mirror universe" theory.

    Scott Gimple is an accomplished chess player. Knowing this, it's interesting that Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Michael Cudlitz have recently referred to the interplay between Rick and Negan as a game of chess.

    "It's a chess game for Negan: Do you take out the strongest guy to prove a point? Or the weakest to show you don't care — which shows you're even more twisted? Eeny, meeny, miny, moe, directed at each person, [allowed Negan] to look in their eyes and see who he was dealing with."
    - Michael Cudlitz

    "One thing I will say about Negan is he’s no dummy, you know? In a game of chess, he’s two moves ahead."
    - Jeffrey Dean Morgan

    "Where Negan and Rick go from here is going to be a bit of a chess game for a while. Negan is a move or two ahead of Rick right now. It's not over for Rick. Negan is just starting the breaking-in process of Rick."
    - Jeffrey Dean Morgan

    "It's a chess game and Negan is going to do anything he can to get the advantage. Negan having Daryl makes Rick think, too. Negan is playing a couple cards, and you can look at it a couple different ways. Negan always has a couple balls in the air and Daryl is one of them."
    - Jeffrey Dean Morgan​

    At the end of 7.01, there was an interesting hypothetical future scene with everyone seated at a picnic table.

    [​IMG]

    The seating arrangement piqued the interest of many since it was a bit unusual (Gabriel so close to Rick, Carl so far away, etc.)

    This is the seating arrangement

    -------------- Glenn -------------
    Maggie -------------- Abe
    Spencer ------------- Sasha
    Eugene -------------- Morgan
    Aaron ---------------- Rosita
    Enid ------------------ Tara
    Carl & Judith ------- (idk it's not even)
    Carol ---------------- Daryl
    Gabriel -------------- Michonne
    ------------ Rick -----------------​

    In the background of this scene is a checkered picnic cloth:

    Untitled-1.png

    Not unlike a chess or checkerboard.

    upload_2016-11-13_12-11-6.jpeg
    (which in some variants come in white/black, white/red, red/black, white/green, etc.)

    Figuring this, arranging the seating as a chessboard (with Rick as the King on the black/red side of the board -- meaning he's on "defense"/making the second move...)

    Rick: King (Black on white square)
    Michonne: Queen (Black on black square)
    Daryl: Bishop (Black on white square)
    Gabriel: Bishop (Black on black square)
    Carol: Knight (Black on white square)
    Tara: Knight (Black on black square)
    Carl: Rook (Black on black square)
    Rosita: Rook (Black on white square)​

    With everyone else being pawns. [Of note: pawns are not useless or invaluable. Pawns are a key part of any chess game. As a general rule, a bishop or knight is worth the value of about two pawns. Pawns are also the only pieces that can become any other piece on the board. Once a pawn crosses into enemy territory, they can transform (usually into a Queen or Rook as those are the most valuable and powerful pieces in the game).]

    Even stranger? The line-up in the clearing in 6.16-7.01 was in the same order as the seating at the picnic table (but with Tara, Gabriel, and Carol missing). With interchanging pawns/non-pawns.

    Glenn (pawn) - Rosita (Rook) - Tara (Knight) - Daryl (Bishop) - Michonne (Queen) - Abe (pawn) - Maggie (pawn) -
    Rick (King) -
    Sasha (pawn) - Gabriel (Bishop) - Aaron (pawn) - Carol (Knight) - Carl (Rook) - Eugene (pawn)

    Only Michonne and Abraham were not where they were supposed to be. Abraham was in Michonne's space. I will get back to that in a minute.

    Now, one thing that's interesting about chess is that it's two groups comprised of the same number of players facing off in opposition -- only they're of different colors.

    What's interesting is that some fans have noticed that the Saviors eerily mirror members of Rick's group. Almost like their alternate universe counterparts.

    This is a loose example of how the Saviors can be seen as mirrors/foils to Rick's group (using some analysis):

    Negan - Rick (The Kings)
    Dwight - Daryl (Bishops)
    Simon - Michonne* (The Queens)
    Chelle - Maggie (Pawns)
    Paula - Carol (Knights)
    Molly - Abraham* (Pawns)
    Jiro - Glenn (Pawns)
    Sherry - Rosita (Rooks)
    Joey - Eugene (Pawns)
    Arat - Tara (Knights)
    Lucille - Carl (maybe? This one is arguable but interesting) (Rooks)

    Still unknown:
    On Rick's side: Sasha, Gabriel, Aaron, Morgan, Spencer, Enid (on Rick's side)
    On Negan's side: Gavin, Jared, Bud, Primo, Dr. Carson, Roman, Laura, Isabella (yet to be introduced), Donnie, Gordon

    Negan : Rick
    While Rick and Negan don't share similar personalities, they're both leaders of strong communities -- both who will resort to downright cruelty to ensure the safety of their respective communities (although their motives are very different). Kirkman went down as saying Rick and Negan are two heads to the same coin.

    "When it comes to the Saviors, and Negan in particular, the way I’ve always thought about this in the comics is this is a group that’s led by a guy who’s had his morality dial a few clicks away from Rick toward the darker aspects of his personality, but is still an intellectual and capable leader who’s kept his group alive against all odds just as long as Rick has. It’s really the best encountering the best. When these two forces come head to head, things are gonna get interesting. This is a much different group than they’ve ever encountered. The Saviors are a group they’re not really prepared for.”​

    So, in that respect, Negan is like the antithesis of Rick. His mirror image in almost every way.


    Dwight : Daryl
    This one seems obvious. Daryl and Dwight's story seem bound to be together. It's no surprise -- comic Dwight was created to be sort of an approximate to TV Daryl. Dwight ends up taking Daryl's crossbow and using it to kill Denise, which sends Daryl hunting for Dwight -- but this ends up backfiring, as Daryl became the hunted. Plus? Dwight now seems to be going out of his way to take on Daryl's attributes (vest, crossbow, even his bike).


    Simon : Michonne*
    Simon is Negan's "right hand man" -- or the most valuable player in Negan's game of chess. Negan assumed Abraham was Rick's "Simon" -- so he took him out at the start of the game. This is because Abraham is a man, like Simon, and was literally seated to the right of Rick in the line-up. However, this was a mistake. Michonne is Rick's most powerful ally and his true "right hand man" (or, in a game of chess, his "Queen").

    Like Michonne, Simon appears to be the level-headed, friendly, cool-operator at the side of the "King". If they do the tower fight remix, I have no doubt it'll be Simon v. Michonne. And it's because they're filling the same role.


    Chelle : Maggie
    Chelle sports an appearance that is even downright similar to Maggie's. They're around the same age. What's interesting is that Chelle lost her father (Frank) and was planning on naming her child after her dead father -- but tragically she lost the child. In the comic, Maggie names her child after Hershel (her own dead father).

    Disconcertingly, Chelle tells Maggie about her dead boyfriend -- who was blown up when Daryl launched the rocket launcher. Guess who lost their husband? Maggie.


    Paula : Carol
    Paula's casting call read, "40s-50s, Cool, controlled, formidable. She’s faced tragedy and trauma and come out the other side stronger and harder. But she’s also become colder and less outwardly emotional — she avoids attachments and maintains a toughly pragmatic, nihilistic worldview…", which, in a way, mirrors Carol's emotional state at various points in the series (although this appears to be a smokescreen to veil a deep-seated hurt).

    Paula also lost a husband and four daughters. Similarly, Carol has lost her husband (Ed) and a daughter (Sophia) plus three surrogate child figures (Mika, Lizzie, and Sam [or perhaps Beth can be seen as approximation to this]).


    Molly : Abraham*
    Molly and Simon are the only two on Negan's side that have gender-swapped foils -- and I believe this is because Negan was meant to underestimate or mistake Michonne for a man (Abraham) as Rick's "right hand man". Molly is definitely the Abraham foil though, without a doubt. Here was her casting call:

    "50s-60s Like someone’s black sheep biker great aunt. An extrovert with badass Texan charm and a darkly humorous take on life. She knows she’s not long for this world, but doesn’t let that get her down. In spite of Mary’s age and general demeanor, she is not someone you want to mess with…"

    It's basically Abraham, but in biker mama form. Even weirder? Molly died by getting her head bashed by Maggie. Kind of like Abraham getting bludgeoned to death by Negan.


    Jiro : Glenn
    Barring the fact they're both Asian (which is a surface-level comparison), Jiro was a pawn who went out with his men and got killed in battle. Just like how Glenn is a guy who went out with his friends -- and inevitably got killed. He was also killed with a head injury like Glenn -- and tried to speak while he was dying.

    Admittedly, this is a shallow comparison since it's primarily based on race and not personality/role, so it's possible this doesn't apply. But it's possible.


    Sherry : Rosita
    Both women underestimate their inner strength and rely on their sexuality to gain what they perceive as security (Sherry offering to be Negan's wife to save Dwight; Rosita attracting Abraham (and the men before him) as a protector). Furthermore, the fact spoilers for 7.04 indicate Dwight shows some unsettling interest in Rosita is interesting -- given it's possible Rosita is Sherry's foil.

    Plus the Rosita-Daryl-Denise trio in "Twice As Far" appeared to be a mirror to Sherry-Dwight-Tina. Both involved the procuring of medicine and an unfortunate encounter with Daryl/Dwight (in both incarnations).


    Joey : Eugene
    Barring the fact they're both overweight men, Fat Joey appears to be a guy who is taken as an idiot because of his appearance and demeanor, but he might be more cunning than he appears. Likewise, Eugene is the same. He disarms people with his demeanor, but he contains more bravery and intelligence than people would think.

    In addition, it was Joey who sabotaged Daryl's escape attempt by acting incompetent, much like how Eugene foiled Dwight's kidnapped of Rosita and Daryl by playing possum and then biting him.


    Arat : Tara
    I mean, the names alone. I don't know what else to say.


    Lucille : Carl
    Both are the thing/person closest to the leader (Negan/Rick). Both get shot and lose a part of themselves. Both are a reminder of the leader's dead spouse. Both are the source of the leader's power. Both are unpredictable.


    What is interesting is that (if this all holds true) Molly-Abraham and Simon-Michonne are the only gender-swapped foils (sans the arguable connection between Lucille and Carl). Coupled with Abraham being seated in the line-up where Michonne should've been in the line-up -- and Negan being under the impression he took Rick's "right hand man" (aka his "Queen") -- this could be indicative of Negan making a miscalculation.

    Negan took out Abraham because he assumed (incorrectly) that he was the most powerful piece on Rick's side of the board. And it's a mistake that could prove costly.

    Anyway... I will surely come back to revisit this.
     
  2. ReeciePiecey

    ReeciePiecey Nestled in Rick's Beard
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    Thanks so much for putting this all in one place. I'm excited to see if it plays out onscreen.
     
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  3. Tom Servo

    Tom Servo Searching for Sophia

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    Awesome theory! And after episode 4, the queen is ready to make her move.
     
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  4. ReeciePiecey

    ReeciePiecey Nestled in Rick's Beard
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    So far it looks like the theory is holding up. Rick is basically powerless right now but his Queen is ready and willing to do the work for him.

    Rosita and Carl seem to be full of aggression and ready for action now.

    I don't know much about chess besides what I read here. What do you think @Doctor Grimes ?
     
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  5. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Well, they're the Rooks -- and Rooks are the second most powerful pieces on the board next to the Queen. Rooks are notorious for making attacks on the opponents King and are often integral in a checkmate.
     
  6. anya7890

    anya7890 Wearing a Necklace of Ears

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    we know both Carl and Rosita make attacks against negan, but I do wonder how sherry will play into all of this? according to your outline, she is a rook as well, so hypothetically, sherry should make an attack on rick, but I just can't think of a scenario were she would do that or why.
     
  7. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    Well so far TF are "playing" as their pieces.
    • King Rick is sticking close to home not making too many moves
    • Queen Michonne is preparing herself to take over the board. The Queen can make moves like all the other pieces except the knights, she can power thru in a straight line backwards and forwards like the Rooks and she can move diagonally backwards and forwards like Bishops. Michonne training herself as a sharp shooter is literally putting another "move" into her arsenal.
    • Bishops Daryl and Gabriel represent their pieces in the way they behave. Bishops move diagonally upon their own color (black or white) throughout the game. One bishop travels the path of the head and the other enjoins the path of the heart.
    • Knights Carol and Tara out riding the range.
    • Rooks Rosita and Carl are power players we see that they are the only two to talk trash to Dwight and Negan showing no fear.
    • Pawns Aaron and Eugene they are the "worker bees" and the infantry. We see both doing their bit to help out and keep order.
     
  8. Mullet of Denial

    Mullet of Denial Drowning in an Ocean
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    Bumpitty bump.

    Someone on reddit pointed out the close up of a chess board during 7x08.

    [​IMG]

    I know nothing about chess but I figured it might be worth dropping over here :lol:
     
  9. Appetence

    Appetence Eternally failing at productivity bc TITTD
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    Good job on the "bump" @Mullet of Lies ;)

    Someone also pointed out in the Richonne Positivity thread (I think it was @Butler36 ) that one of the bricks in the cell had what looks like a possible Queen piece on it's side. You can see it during Rick and Michonne's conversation at the part when she it touching his chest "you said that".

    It is not super obvious, but eh, maybe that's what they were going for? I will try to get a pic and add to this post....

    [​IMG]

    Let's speculate away!!! (what else is there to do during the hiatus? :lol:)


    Also, do those figures look like any particular chess pieces to anyone in Mullet's pic she posted above??

    Edit: here we go:
    [​IMG]
     
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  10. anya7890

    anya7890 Wearing a Necklace of Ears

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    The pieces looked to belong to thier WWII set.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    GREAT CATCH!!!

    I was looking all over for that!!!!! Where does this come from? Not sure why they have the Swiss flag for Nazi Germany.

    This is why I think that Dwight will NOT change sides in the series.
     
  12. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    So is Dwight the rook since it is most prominent???
     
  13. epiath

    epiath Ricktator

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    Yeah! I saw this and was like "it has to mean somethang!"
     
  14. Earth & Sky

    Earth & Sky Searching for Sophia

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    I dont know much about chess but this chess theory is so intriguing. It makes sense now after last episode about Father Gabe being a bishop. Are knights like protectors of the king and queen? Tara standing behind the King and Queen at Hilltop and helping to free Michonne from the two guys at the Junkyard. Also I believe Jesus will be apart of TF. I can picture him sitting between Daryl and Tara in the picnic scene. I can also see him being a knight or a bishop in the future. In the picnic scene, Aaron was seated at the Kings side of the table but his plate was on the pawns table. Does this mean that Aaron will change from a pawn to maybe a Rook later?
     
    #14 Earth & Sky, Feb 25, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
  15. Butler36

    Butler36 What?
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    The queen in chess can move 8 spaces. Michonne killed 8 walkers.



    The king can move one space. Rick killed one walker.
     
  16. MamaGrimes

    MamaGrimes 100% Certified Shipper Trash
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    Thank you Butler!

    @Appetence and @Tater, come on over here and add your spec! Great spec often starts in The Bunker!
     
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  17. Appetence

    Appetence Eternally failing at productivity bc TITTD
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    Alrighty then. @Butler36 and @Tater thanks for getting the 'ole wheels turning.

    I guess I will take a crack at this now that we have more to go off on at this point in the season.

    After 7.12, I think it's pretty clear that Rick and Michonne are indeed the King and Queen on our board.

    There was an interesting line in 7.12 that sparked this conversation in the bunker. When Rick and Michonne were hatching their plan to block their walkers in with the car (with no brakes-much to Rick's surprise later in this scene), Rick left Michonne to handle 8 walkers while he fumbled to pull a solitary 1 out of a windshield.

    "You can handle 8" he says.

    She surely can.

    So this is where is gets interesting.... The Queen in the game of Chess can move across the entire board in one swift movement. guess how many spaces that is? You guessed it, 8.

    The King however, can only move .... 1.

    Sounds about right for our King and Queen. While the King is considered the most important piece in the game, he is not the most powerful. That is the Queen. She can do the most. She protects the King and she can take out an enemy from any and all directions.

    So here's where we suspect this may lead into our season finale.

    If Michonne is indeed going to be taking the tower remix from Andrea, this makes sense. She is in a place on the "board" where she has the advantage to see and take out more enemies than her King necessarily can from the ground. Rick may be fixated on one particular target too. Negan. One move to play while Michonne has many. She protects the King from her tower.

    HOWEVER, like most perfect plans (eh-hem, Rick's plan to block the walkers with the car), things go sideways and the brakes don't work, or perhaps your "friend" reveals themselves to be your enemy in a crucial moment.

    "It was a good plan."

    The Queen is also vulnerable and if in a moment of panic the King sees she is in danger, he is in a sense "checked" yet not yet "checkmated". (If Negan says something like "checkmate" in this scene, I'll just laugh).
     
    #17 Appetence, Mar 7, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
  18. Appetence

    Appetence Eternally failing at productivity bc TITTD
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    For reference, thanks to @Butler36

    The King:
    This is the piece the whole game revolves around and represents our deeper self, the divine spark within us. And yet, it is the least powerful piece in terms of ability to move about the board. It can only take one step at a time, though it can travel squarely or triangularly.

    The Queen:
    This is the most powerful piece on the board having unlimited movement in any of the eight directions. She is the power of Nature, reflecting the light of the King, possessing unlimited potential.

    The Bishop:
    These pieces remain upon their own color throughout the game and can only move diagonally. One bishop travels the path of the head and the other enjoins the path of the heart.

    The Knight:
    The Knight represents the awakening of the spiritual initiate acting in the world. It moves by leaps of intuition along the sides of a right triangle. It alternates between white and black squares with each move, therefore, engaging the head and heart in each action. Only a knight or a pawn can initiate the first move of the game. The knight can make a move that even the Queen cannot make.

    The Rook:
    These are the only two pieces permitted to move strictly along straight lines in the four cardinal directions. They represent our physical power to act in concert with the world's material structures.

    Pawns:
    Pawns represent ordinary men and women attempting to move across the board of life toward eventual initiation into union with the divine. The pawn utilizes only the simplest interactions with other pieces and does not recognize the divine forces behind its life. It only moves one step at a time. Always forward, never backward. It can move either straight ahead when challenged, or diagonally, showing that it can utilize the head or heart in it's progress. If the pawn gets far enough to triumph over life's trials and adventures, to the eighth square of the opposing side, it achieves a higher state. At this point it can transform into any piece is desires. Usually the pawn is made a queen and thus becomes a co-creator. Though many a wise man has chosen to become a knight and won a definitive victory as a result.
     
  19. Mullet of Denial

    Mullet of Denial Drowning in an Ocean
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    [​IMG]

    Y'all better slow down with this genius shit. :lol:

    But seriously, this is hella interesting. I don't really understand chess and when explained by you lovelies, it's black and white. Oh Gimps, you clever little thing. :pursed:
     
  20. Appetence

    Appetence Eternally failing at productivity bc TITTD
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    To add:

    We have our other pieces on the board.

    Our Bishops: Daryl and Gabe

    Our Knights: Carol and Tara

    Our Rooks: Rosita and Carl

    Our Pawns: Sasha and Maggie.


    We know Daryl is Rick's dude, but lately Gabe has moved up in the ranks. He's been by Rick's side and supporting him in Daryl's absence.

    Carol and Tara have gone through some similarities in their journeys this season as well. Both are familiar with relatively peaceful and reluctant communities (Kingdom and Oceanside) and both have been in a bit of a state of limbo for a good part of the season. Both are holding back in one way or another. FOR NOW. We've seen that Tara is ready to share what she knows about the Oceanside community and Carol will shortly been brought into the fray as well, bringing with her the Kingdom. I'm not sure what more (if anything) the Oceanside community will be contributing to the war, aside from their weapons, though.

    Carl and Rosita have both made hasty and irrational decisions based on anger this season. Carl tried to ambush the Sanctuary and take out Negan (failed) as will Rosita very soon attempt the same.

    Sasha and Maggie have sadly been relegated to the back burner this season :ogg:


    There's more, but I'm blanking right now :lol:

    @Tater thank you for getting me excited again and getting this conversation going, please add more and fix what I screwed up!!!