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Discussion/Meta Killers vs. Innocents: Does Carol View the Group in Two Halves?

Discussion in 'Carol / Melissa McBride' started by Doctor Grimes, Mar 19, 2016.

  1. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I didn't know how else to phrase this, but a few of us were having a discussion elsewhere (spawned by the Carol arc discussion) and began to wonder:

    Why is it Carol treats certain members of the group differently than others?

    For instance, in "Not Tomorrow Yet", we see plainly that Carol doesn't want Maggie to be a killer (like herself).

    Carol
    : They're in trouble. Stay here.
    Maggie: I'm going with you.
    Carol: I said stay here.
    Maggie: No.
    Carol: Damn it, Maggie.
    Maggie: I have to.
    Carol: No, you don't. You don't have to.
    Maggie: Yes, I do.
    Carol: What the hell are you doing here?
    Maggie: What am I supposed to do?
    Carol: You're supposed to be someone else.
    -- Not Tomorrow Yet​

    She doesn't want that for Daryl either -- we saw that in 5x06 when Carol convinced Daryl to save Noah.

    Noah: Please! Please, please!
    Carol: Daryl. Daryl. Stop.
    Daryl: You almost died 'cause of him!
    Carol: But I didn't.
    Daryl: Nah, let him be.
    -- Consumed​

    She didn't want to see Daryl become "that guy" who leaves people behind (according to Denise Huth in the "Inside 5x06" video "I don't think Carol chooses that moment to save Noah for her. She wants to save Daryl.") Carol seemingly admires in Daryl his innate goodness. She even begrudged Rick in season two for turning Daryl into "his henchman".

    Carol: Why do you need him? He's just gonna pull you down.
    Daryl: No. Rick's done all right by me.
    Carol: You're his henchman and I'm a burden. You deserve better.
    Daryl: What do you want?
    Carol: A man of honor.
    Daryl: Rick has honor.
    -- Beside the Dying Fire​

    She also told Daryl that, unlike her, she can't let herself feel it.

    Carol: We're not dead. That's what you said. You're not dead. I know you. We're different. I can't let myself - But you... I know you. You have to let yourself feel it. [gives Daryl a kiss to his forehead] You will.
    -- Them​

    However, this runs contrary to how Carol treats Rick and Morgan -- and treated Andrea in season three.

    In "Indifference", Carol gets upset with Rick because he's not the one making the hard decisions. He's playing farmer. It pisses her off. She wants him to get his hands dirty.

    Carol: That's what it always comes down to. You can be a farmer, Rick. You can't just be a farmer. You're a good leader. Better than I probably gave you credit for.
    Rick: I never murdered two of our own.
    Carol: Just one.
    Rick: He was gonna kill me.
    Carol: So were they. They were gonna kill all of us.
    Rick: You don't know that.
    Carol: If you thought it would save Judith or Carl, would you have done it then or would you have just gone back to your crops and hoped it'd all be okay? You don't have to like what I did, Rick. I don't. You just accept it.
    -- Indifference​

    She's essentially telling him he has to kill to save people.

    In "I Ain't a Judas", Carol tells Andrea she needs to kill the Governor while he is sleeping. Based on her interactions with Daryl and Maggie in 5x06 and 6x13, I couldn't imagine this.

    Andrea: And Shane?
    Carol: Rick killed him. The night we left the farm. That whole Randall thing was a lie. Shane tried to kill Rick.
    Andrea: Shane loved Rick.
    Carol: Shane loved Lori.
    Andrea: Rick's become cold. Unsteady.
    Carol: He has his reasons. The Governor, you need to do something.
    Andrea: I am.
    Carol: No, you need to sleep with him. Give him the greatest night of his life. You get him to drop his guard. Then when he's sleeping, you can end this.
    -- I Ain't a Judas​

    In "Heads Up", we see Carol condemning Morgan's philosophy:

    Morgan: I didn't want to kill five people I didn't have to kill.
    Carol: They burned people alive.
    -- Heads Up​

    It's very contradictory. It's possible it's just that Carol has assigned roles to members of the group, and when they start to shift from her perceived take on who they should be, she doesn't like it. So there's "killers" and "innocents".

    Carol has relegated herself, Rick, Morgan, and Andrea to being killers (most likely Michonne as well since she was at the meeting in "Heads Up" to talk to Morgan), but people like Daryl and Maggie should be protected from the bloodshed (they're innocents).

    Is this hypocritical? To get upset when people don't conform to her philosophy? Or is she just doing this to look out for the group's best interest?
     
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  2. DirtieBirdie

    DirtieBirdie Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I think you make a very good point. I'm currently rewatching the series (I'm up to I ain't a Judas) and I'm going to pay close attention to how Carol speaks to everyone. I think she realizes that there's no going back once you've killed someone (for whatever reason) and she'd rather the "killers" as she becomes, do the dirty work, because they've already gotten their hands dirty. It's about keeping the innocent that way to maintain a balance. The innocent represent hope, goodness, the future, while the "killers" represent reality: that brutality and coldness is necessary for the greater good. They represent the here and now.

    She knows Rick, Michonne, Andrea, herself are too far gone so she relies on them to continue.
     
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  3. Butler36

    Butler36 What?
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    I think this is interesting because Daryl is one of the more prolific killers of the group. Like he's in the top of the group who will kill. So why does she want to protect him from it? It is an interesting contrast even among the killers.
     
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  4. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I think because she wants to believe Daryl won't follow in dark footsteps. She also identifies with Daryl on many levels since they came from the same background. Protecting Daryl is an outward projection of protecting herself, maybe?
     
  5. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I also think it's that Carol does believe people can be "too far gone," while others reject that belief (like Rick doesn't believe that; neither does Morgan). In Carol's eyes, Rick, Morgan, and Michonne are too far gone because they're all killers who have taken many human lives. So it's on them to stay distant and dark -- shouldering that burden and power to snuff out life -- for the benefit of the group. Carol also counts herself in their company. They're the "monsters", so when she sees Morgan start trying to crawl back from the dark, she wants him to go back to the shadows. He's not allowed to come back. They're all "consumed."

    Whereas the others? They are free from that weight and should remain that way.
     
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  6. Misty Knight

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    I think it's less about who's innocent and who are killers because they're all killers and more about who she has emotional connections to.

    Daryl is her closest friend, she knows his past, knows he's been abused and have always felt he deserves better in life. So with him, she has this need to protect him even though he doesn't need it. Maggie is about to be a mother, I think if Sophia was still alive, Carol would not be doing half the things she's done since season 4. Carol doesn't want Maggie to be too far gone for the sake of that child. I actually think if any of the other women were with her, she would not have a problem with them killing, but if they were pregnant, she would be just as adamant.
     
  7. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    Completely agree. She identifies with Daryl because of their abusive past and she connects with Maggie as a mother and doesn’t want either to follow her footsteps.
     
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  8. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    So it's possible Daryl and Maggie are both representative of aspects of herself -- more specifically her past. By protecting them, trying to turn them back, if she can do that, maybe there's hope for her as well.

    Because we've seen she clearly doesn't think there's hope for her. She rejects the notion of redemption and another way (as we've seen her tell Morgan). So, with Daryl and Maggie, those two represent her "hope" that any of them can change.
     
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  9. day dreamer

    day dreamer Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    I'm not even sure if Carol realizes she's treating people differently (and to be honest, I didn't really see her as doing that, it never occurred to me) I think Morgan has just messed with her head so much at this point she's worried about becoming someone like Paula or the Wolf and being a killer without feelings, despite the fact that she's felt every single kill she's ever had to make. It's just bad storytelling.
     
  10. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    It is true she started adhering more to this "no kill" philosophy post-Morgan, but I think Carol never wanted to kill. It's just not in her nature to kill -- just as its not in many people's natures. When she killed Karen and David to prevent the illness, I think she did it because Rick wasn't doing his job (in her eyes) -- and it should've been something he did, not her.

    It's also possible she thought she could handle killing to save her family, but ultimately it's just not something she can take mentally. It's sad that I've seen some people calling Carol "weak" now, because refusing to kill doesn't make someone weak. There are soldiers who are trained to go to war, are convinced they can pull the trigger, until they can't. There are soldiers who killed in war only to come back unable to deal with that fact. Everyone reacts differently to trauma.

    Carol was trying hard to be that person (one of the killers/soldiers), so she was telling everyone else around her to kill as well, but now it's finally catching up to her now that she's caught her breath, I think she's projecting. I don't think Morgan has gotten into her head so much as he's tapped into a deep-seated guilt that has been there since the prison. We saw her guilt in season four after she killed Karen and David (knocking over the water barrel in tears, admitting what she did to Tyreese). So it's always been there, but she didn't have the time to contemplate.

    Alexandria is now the place where all their demons are catching up to them. Now that Carol has had a taste of normalcy, I think it's beginning to hit her that there's always the possibility she'll have to kill again.


    Also, Carol is religious. I often don't think about it, but that's been established for a while. She thinks she's going to Hell. It's very possible she already believes Rick, Morgan, Michonne, etc. are all going to Hell for the crimes they've committed as well -- and it's their job as the sinful ones to protect the innocent so they won't be condemned to the same fate. She seems to reject the notion of redemption -- possibly because of a religious backbone. Either way, it's interesting that Carol seems to want to protect people like Daryl and Maggie from killing (becoming "that person"), but she's okay with herself, Rick, Morgan, and even Andrea back in season three being killers for the sake of the group's safety.

    This is all super depressing.
     
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  11. day dreamer

    day dreamer Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    Andrea back in S3 was before her whole mentality changed. I think she views Rick differently because he's the leader and has proven he can handle killing. Though Daryl has also killed without remorse several times, but he has anger management issues so she probably views Rick as stronger than him? I believe it's less about wanting Maggie killing someone and more about her as a pregnant lady staying safe. But who knows. This story is a contrived mess that's dragging out all because LJ's schedule couldn't accommodate S5 filming.

    Bitter, party of one. lol
     
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  12. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    :salt: :salt: :salt:
     
  13. Mousey

    Mousey Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    Crashing this party late because I was in house-buying hell for most of last month, but while I'm feeling most of the meta here, there's one point where I strongly diverge, and that's on her line to Maggie. I watched that episode and literally went "what the fuck" when Carol shouted at Maggie she was supposed to be someone else. That sudden burst of animosity seemed weird, as did some of her trepidation in the previous episode about Maggie, since she's a big girl capable of making her own decisions. But with that line and a re-watch, I understood.

    More than trying to keep Maggie innocent, since I think Carol knows Maggie is capable of much more and going to a darker place probably than even Daryl as the story stands, I think Carol was trying to basically knock some sense into Maggie. "You're supposed to be someone else." Carol became someone else out of that (motherly) love she has for the group and the community. She killed even though she didn't want to, but like Tobin said, it was the hard work she did out of that love. For Maggie, her desire was to be out there with the fam in the thick of the action, but according to Carol she's "supposed to be someone else" in that circumstance - someone who's okay with staying back because she has to consider her child now. Maggie has to sublimate what she wants because she's a mother, and that's what Carol did and continues to do now (or at least was until her killing instinct seemed to break her).
     
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  14. Tisha Grimes

    Tisha Grimes Stay Strong
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    I really think Gimple totally messed up this story of Carol's. It is like driving me nuts.
     
  15. Minty

    Minty Nestled in Rick's Beard

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    Ever since this storyline began, I've been having a really hard time finding posts I agree with. Hell, I rarely ever agree with people's opinions on Carol, that's why I usually keep out of it even though I love her. But this is amazing.

    I don't think this storyline is bad, there were moments that felt rushed and contrieved, yes. I didn't like her leaving Alexandria in 'Twice as Far', for example, because I felt it had too little build up to that. But, Carol questioning her morals is something I've been wanting to see for a while now, she's been one of my favorites since the beginning, however I found it hard to enjoy her in season 5, particularly 5 B. She became this manipulative person who scared little children and lied to her friends and I just didn't see the character I fell in love with anymore, she was a shell of herself. So while yes, it's sad and hard to see Carol broken, I think this will lead to a more balanced Carol and I'm all for that. I want to see her being a badass while still maintaining her humanity.
     
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