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Discussion/Meta Look at the pretty OWLS.

Discussion in 'Speculation Archive' started by Barbarossa-TWD, Jun 14, 2016.

  1. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    An extremely long post... sorry :merle:

    Symbolic meanings for the owl are:
    • Intuition, ability to see what others do not see
    • The presence of the owl announces change
    • Capacity to see beyond deceit and masks
    • Wisdom
    • The traditional meaning of the owl spirit animal is the announcer of death, most likely symbolic like a life transition, change


    S3.E1
    [​IMG]
    First time we see an owl is when the Rick&Co leave the farm and are going house to house looking for shelter.


    Lori: Psst! (Rick turns around) I appreciate everything you’re doing, we all do.
    But it’s been a death march, and we’re exhausted, can we just enjoy this for a few days?


    Rick: The baby will be here in a few days, it’s no time for a picnic.

    Lori: No, but it’s time to get the house in order.

    Rick: What do you think I’m doing?

    Lori: Your absolute best.

    Rick: Don’t patronize me! (he goes, but she follows him)

    Lori: I’m not! I’m just saying… the baby is about to be here, and we need to talk about…

    Rick: About what?

    Lori: Things. We’ve been avoiding…

    Rick: You know what? You want to talk, talk to Hershel. I’m doing stuff, Lori. Things, isn’t that enough? I’m still here.

    Lori: You’re right. I’m sorry.





    S4.E11
    [​IMG]

    Carl: So? How long has it been?
    Michonne: It happened after-- you know, after everything happened.
    Carl: Does my dad know?
    Michonne: Never told him. Never told anyone till just now.
    Carl: Your secret is safe with me.
    Michonne: It's not really a secret.
    Carl: It's still safe with me. ( sighs ) ( breathing heavily )
    Carl: Michonne? Everything okay?
    Michonne: Yeah, it's fine.
    Carl: There's a baby in there.
    Michonne: It's a dog.
    Carl: My dad let me name her. Maybe-- maybe her and Andre are together somewhere.
    Michonne: Come on. It's almost noon. Your dad will wonder where we are if we're late
    By finally being able acknowledging the death of Andre, Michonne is able to move forwards. By seeing Michonne heal from the death of Andre, Carl is able to accept the supposed death of Judith. Carl says both of their names out loud, acknowledges their death and basically gives them a short sweet eulogy. This is a lesson Rick hasn't learned yet.

    ________________________________________________________________________

    We know what Michonne actually sees is the after math of a mother killing her four children. In this picture is a foreshadowing of another mother who has to kill a child nor has accepted the death of her own child.

    [​IMG]

    _____________________________________________________________________________



    S5.E12
    [​IMG]

    Jesse: I could give you a cut if you want.

    Rick: You don't even know me.

    Jesse: I can take care of myself.

    Jesse: I have two boys, Ron and Sam.
    Ron's my oldest boy.
    He's about your son's age.
    I could introduce them.
    If that's okay with you and--

    Rick: It's just me. No, that'd be-- that'd be great.

    Jesse: I'm sorry.

    Rick: Electricity, showers, haircuts-- I never thought I'd see those again.

    Jesse: Come on. Haircuts were never going away.
    It's okay if you're not okay with this yet.


    And SCORE!!!

    That was the whole reason Jesse came over to see if see could find a new replacement of her husband. As we all know SHE LIED... she CAN NOT take care of her self. In this way she is very much like Lori finding a replacement for Rick with Shane days after Rick's supposed death.

    Rick has already gone thru this story he killed Shane because Lori said she was afraid of him and now he ends up in the same predicament with Jesse.



    S5.E12
    [​IMG]
    Rick: Look, I'm sorry I broke whatever that was I broke.
    Jesse: It's a sculpture I'm making with the boys. It's an owl. I mean, it will be. I just can't get the eyes right.
    Rick: Right, the eyes.
    Jesse: You didn't even get a good look at it.

    Look at that damn owl compared to the real owl... it is a barely recognisable imitation. Jesse says she can't get the eyes right. Eyes represent the soul ... there is no soul (depth) in this relationship. But Rick can't see that yet.

    S5.E14

    [​IMG]

    Rick: Hey. What happened?
    Jesse: I don't know. Maybe somebody doesn't like owls.
    Rick: Someone came in here and did this?
    Jesse: Yeah. Stuff like this never happens here. (sighs)
    Rick: Well, you got any enemies?
    You know anybody who hates owls? (laughs)
    Too bad there isn't somebody who could look into this kind of thing.
    I'll ask around.
    Jesse: No, you don't have to.
    Rick: Yeah, I know.
    Jesse: Okay, so you find the person who did this and then what?
    Rick: Some kind of consequences.
    You ever heard about the broken window theory?
    Boils down to this-- you keep the windows intact, you keep society intact.
    Jesse: This was an owl, Rick.
    Rick:Yeah. Yeah. I got to do something today.

    Wow!!! This foreshadows another conversation Rick will have with Deanna.

    S5.E15
    Rick: He's beating his wife.
    We have to stop it.
    Deanna: How?
    Rick: We separate them.
    We tell him that's how it'll be from now on.
    Deanna: What happens when he doesn't want to do that?
    Rick: It's not his choice.
    Deanna: So what happens?
    Rick: I kill him. We kill him.
    Deanna: We don't kill people.
    This is civilization, Rick.
    Rick: Warning someone to stop or die, that is civilized nowadays. Oh. So what? So we just let him hit her? We let him kill her?


    Okay, so here is the deal. Everyone in Alexandria knows that Aaron has just brought in a group of hardened survivors from the outside so that they could help them survive. Let's just call this what it really is... they brought in killers just in case they have to kill some one.

    So the first person from the community knocking on their door is Jesse. She measures him up and finds out that he does not have a wife. Then she initiates getting closer to him thru their sons.

    Jesse knows damn well that her husband destroyed that owl and here she is questioning Rick how far will he go to punish Pete. When Rick brings up the broken window BS she sees that he is not as savage as he thought... she is getting no farther with Rick than she had with Deanna.

    Jesse wants Pete dead.


    S5.E15
    [​IMG]


    Jesse: I don't want Ron and Sam to know about those.

    Rick: Well, your secret's safe.

    Jesse: Noah was a sweet kid. (sighs)
    But Tara, she's-- she's in good hands with Pete.

    Rick: He's hitting you.
    He's hurting you.
    It has to stop.
    It will.

    Jesse: How?
    There are things in his life that happened.

    Rick: I don't care.

    Jesse: Look, it was like this before and he got help.
    I helped him and things were good.
    I can fix it.

    Rick: No, you can't.
    But I can.


    Jesse: No, what-- what can you do?
    What are you gonna do?
    You gonna put him in jail?

    You're only gonna make things worse.

    Rick: If it's gotten worse, it means he's killed you.
    That's what's next.
    And I'm not gonna let that happen.

    Jesse: Why do you care?
    Why is this so important to you? Now?
    You've made it.
    You have a home for your kids.
    Rick, what are you doing?

    Rick: I'm trying to help.

    Jesse: I don't know that.
    I'm married. Okay?
    I can take care of myself.
    We have to take care of ourselves.
    What are you doing?

    Rick: You know Sam asked for a gun?
    To protect you.

    Jesse: You shouldn't be here.

    Rick: Jessie, in here, you can't see it, but it's the same.
    It's the same as out there.
    We have food and roofs over our heads, but you don't get to just live.
    You don't get to put it off or wish it away,
    Jessie. If you don't fight, you die.
    And... and I don't want you to die.
    I can-- I can help you.
    I can keep you and your boys safe.
    I can.
    All you have to do is say yes.

    Jesse: Would you do this for someone else?
    Would you do this for anyone?


    Rick: No. No.

    Jesse: Yes.


    BINGO!!!!

    Jesse played on Rick's emotions until he agreed to up the ante and kill Pete. Rick still having a bit of sanity left at least tried to get permission from Deanna. In a twist it was Deanna who said "YES".

    So in conclusion Jesse was BS from the beginning and sought out Rick to kill her husband... just like Lori sought out Rick to kill Shane.


    THIS IS WHY RICK TELLS CARL "THIS IS DIFFERENT" IN REGARDS TO HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH MICHONNE!!! Michonne is not trying to barter her love for him with him killing someone...
     
    #1 Barbarossa-TWD, Jun 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2016
  2. FLNatural

    FLNatural Caressing Eugene's Mullet

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    This was great. I totally agree that Messie wanted to replace her husband with Rick. He was the big bad leader of the hardasses. She wasted no time slinking over there and flirting with him. She wanted the most powerful man in town. And that's Rick. Her plan was always for Rick to get rid of Pete.

    As far as Lori, I have no kind words for her. There is a lot of defense of her as she was in a tough situation. Yes, she was, but she also should have come clean to Rick immediately. And how about not taking abortion pills behind his back? I mean, what in the actual fuck?? She should have kept her distance from Shane. She knew that man was unhinged (fine as a MF, but still missing a few screws). Yet, she continued to seek Shane out and have conversations with him. She deliberately set Rick on a path to kill Shane with all that, "He thinks you can't protect us. He thinks this baby is his." I was really hating her when she was setting both of them up like that.

    So glad Rick finally found the right woman for him.

    Viva Richonne!!
     
  3. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    She wanted Pete dead. She understood that was the only way from the beginning even if Deanna didn't.

    Richonne is sooooo... different.

    I think what Gimple means when he says that Rick had to go thru with Jesse is very true.

    (Morgan btw is the Greek Chorus)

    E3.E12 Clear


    Morgan: And then when I came up...
    she was standing there right in front of him and he had his gun up and he couldn't do it.
    So I called to him and he turned.
    And then she was just ... just on him.

    And I see red.
    I see red.
    Everything is red.
    Everything I see is red.
    And I do it.
    Finally.

    Finally was too late.
    I was supposed to.
    I was selfish.
    I was weak.
    You gave me the gun.

    S6.E9 No Way Out

    [​IMG]

    Morgan killed the "idea" of his wife (his old life) too late and she ended up killing his son Duane.

    The same thing nearly happened to Rick.
    Rick couldn't let go of the "idea" of Lori (his old life) he even tried to substitute in Jesse.
    Luckily, Rick saw red and came to his senses quick enough to save Carl, however, not quick enough and Carl lost his eye.

    Like Morgan's son, Carl was nearly killed because his father could not let go of the past.

    So when Rick sees that Carl is going to survive he is finally ready to accept the new world.

    S6.E9 No Way Out

    Rick: today... I saw what they could do, what we could do, if we work together.
    We'll rebuild the walls.
    We'll expand the walls.
    There will be more.
    There's gotta be more.
    Everything Deanna was talking about... is possible.
    It's all possible.
    I see that now.

    When I was out there... with them... when it was over... when I knew we had this place again... I had this feeling.
    It took me a while to remember what it was... because I haven't felt it since before I woke up in that hospital bed. ( crying )
    I want to show you the new world, Carl.
    I want to make it a reality for you.

    Please, Carl... let me show you.
    Plea-- please, son, don't die.



    This is a HUGE step for Rick. This is why he takes off his ring and this is why he is ready to be with Michonne. Rick wants to BUILD not just survive.
     
    #3 Barbarossa-TWD, Jun 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
  4. FLNatural

    FLNatural Caressing Eugene's Mullet

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    Great analysis!

    Agree on everything. I just don't like Messie's over importance in the eyes of Andy and Gimple. She was just a symbol of his old life (as you said). It had nothing to do with her as a person. She was a stand in. Basically any woman could have fit the bill.
    This was what YNB said on TTD and she was right. Of course, Hardwick tried to shut her down because he just loved Messie and thought she was so hot. I really can't stand him. Messie was always supposed to die, just like Rick's old life. Michonne is his future. Andy has even stated this in interviews (way back since S4). He said in an interview that when Michonne comes knocking on their door after the prison is destroyed, Andy said Rick looks through the peep hole and sees their future.
     
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  5. box5angel

    box5angel The New Mrs. Grimes
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    Spot on analysis, @Barbarossa-TWD :thumbsup:

    Yes, the way Andy and Gimple go on about how Jessie was important in Rick's life to help open his heart is a big bowl of crap. Forever annoyed at that.

    Go YNB. They just need to get rid of CH and get someone who can see all sides, critique things, and still have your faves but not downplay others. He doesn't do that.

    Andy does get bonus points for saying Michonne was their future. So that kind of overrides that crap about Jessie and his heart. Lol
     
  6. TexasZAgal

    TexasZAgal Ricktator
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    I have always thought that when AL was saying that crap he was only saying what they wanted him to say, he heart was not in it.

    Plus I can't stand CH, so whatever he said does not count for anything in my book.
     
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  7. Canuckgirl

    Canuckgirl Ricktator

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    Hmmmm Pete did not destroy the owl, Sam did. He even told Carol about it
     
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  8. box5angel

    box5angel The New Mrs. Grimes
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    After I wrote that comment, I was thinking that too. Could be true.

    Good way to look at CH.
     
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  9. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    He was lying about his father's behavior.
     
  10. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    Think of it this way, substitute Jesse is as important to Rick's life as much as Morgan's walker wife. In fact I saw a photo that was never used they had made Lori in her white dress into a walker.
     
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  11. FLNatural

    FLNatural Caressing Eugene's Mullet

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    So they made Lori into a walker? Interesting. Wonder why they never used that.

    I would say that Lori and Morgan's wife had the same importance to their husbands. They are both part of the old world and both husbands have finally moved on. Both were stuck for a long time. Morgan went crazy after his son died. He blamed himself for Duane's death. He got through it because of his new philosophy he now lives by. Rick went crazy because Lori died (and all the other shit that's been going on). He was finally able to let all that go when he found sanctuary in Alexandria and in Michonne. That's why I was so pissed with the whole Blanderson situation (and anyone who was encouraging it). Rick was at his breaking point. He needed to move on but that stupid, selfish woman with her stupid selfish kids wouldn't let him. I thank all that is holy that those characters are dead.

    Rick making a home with Michonne is his philosophy and his saving grace. She saved his sanity.
     
  12. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    Both Morgan and Rick were not only trying to hold on to the past but refusing to see the world for what it is the good and the bad... Michonne had to drag Rick kicking and screaming to Alexandria. Remember he didn't want to go and when he was there didn't want to be there but he saw that it wa good for the kids. It wasn't until he nearly lost Carl that he accepted that there could be hope in the world. That is why he was so upbeat going on a run with Daryl. This was BEFORE he consummated his relationship with Michonne and I think that is an important distinction. Rick had taken off his ring before Michonne.
     
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  13. box5angel

    box5angel The New Mrs. Grimes
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    @Barbarossa-TWD @FLNatural

    There's actually a clip of it. Someone posted it on one of the forums.

    Found it!

     
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  14. TexasZAgal

    TexasZAgal Ricktator
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    I am glad they did use that scene. Poor Rick.
     
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  15. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Interesting owl round-up and analysis in the OP. Thanks!

    I appreciate different perspectives, but I don't find this interpretation of Jessie's motives to be convincing. I see no reason to believe she was a manipulative schemer, and no matter how you slice it, it was Rick doing the pursuing (...but of Lori). I ship Richonne as hard as anybody and I can still acknowledge that. As I see it, that weird stretch with Jessie was a very disturbing and unhealthy phase that Rick was going through. As many people have observed, Rick still hadn't properly processed the death of Lori after all this time, and he'd also been through monstrous amounts of trauma. To me, it seems a part of him thought he could make everything "better" by forcing his way into her life, and it caused him to go full Shane for a while there. (To be fair, he'd started falling "off the wagon," as Hershel would put it, before they got to Alexandria, but this sure didn't help!)

    If you'd like to point to "danger" symbolism for the owl, why not interpret it like the creepy recurring "A"? Sam stamped a red "A" on Rick's hand at the party, then the next day Rick encounters Jessie and Pete outside. The three all flash the "A" that is still on their hands and wave in passing. Then Rick (who doesn't yet have any idea Pete is abusing Jessie) brandishes the gun Carol stole for him while giving Pete a contempt-filled look from behind. Full Shane, with a Bee Gees soundtrack. On the surface that stamp is supposed to be an innocent sign of belonging to Alexandria, but I know I'm not the only one who thought immediately of Terminus upon seeing it. Also note that Sam and Jessie's family name is Anderson. I don't think these things are an accident. The meaning being suggested is that the entire family is a trap. The owl might just be another sign the Anderson house (broken glass window), and Jessie herself (deathgrip on Carl -- Lori trying to take him from beyond the grave?), are not safe. Or alternatively, since Daryl bagged that owl in the house in S3 for food, and since Rick accidentally clobbered the statue, as well as Sam (or Pete depending on your interpretation I guess), maybe it simply suggests the Andersons are marked for death.

    *edit*
    I've seen that deleted scene before. Gross as it is, they should have used it. Michonne was watching him hallucinate btw. I think she got it right away and the fact she understood what he was going through was part of why she grew to trust him so soon as she did. (The person who commented that Jessie was zombie Lori is right on the money, imo.)
     
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  16. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    First of all this interpretation has nothing to do with Richonne, I don't even know where you came up with that. In fact, I commented that it was important to note that Rick accepted living in the new world to Carl and also that he took off his wedding ring BEFORE consummating his relationship with Michonne. This is important because is shows us that he did not rid himself of Jesse to be with Michonne he did so to belong to the new world and that world happens to have Michonne in it.

    Rick went after Jesse as a substitute Lori. Jesse went after Rick for protection from her husband. Aaron even said that Deanna told them all to give the newcomers space and there is Jesse banging at the door before Rick has even cleaned up. If it was just a simple delivery she should have dropped it off and immediately left not offer to come into the house of a "wild" man who is half dressed and offer to cut his hair. Remember she was the first to see him clean and shaved... Before that the gossip around town must have been about Aaron bringing back this wild looking man with a beard...notice we didn't see anyone else stopping by. In a later episode Tobin recounts to Rick that they all thought he was crazy with that beard and how they all were afraid of him. The only other person who came over and tried to ingratiate themselves with Rick is Pete. He brought over beer... But Jesse had gotten there first. Even Deanna didn't stop by until that evening.

    I made this post about owls not about the "A".
     
    #16 Barbarossa-TWD, Jun 18, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
  17. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    I didn't say your post was about Richonne. I don't know you, and wanted to cover that base so we could hopefully both get an idea where we're each coming from. Your OP highlighted an interesting pattern of owls in the series and you go on to note some further intriguing and insightful inferences. As your post develops though, your interpretation of that pattern (and the premises for that interpretation) stray from what seems most likely (at least to me). I just happen to believe there's a more plausible alternative conclusion to be drawn that is better supported by what's in the show, as discussed in my earlier post.

    I'm sorry, I don't understand the relevance of this to my critique of your post?

    The main criticisms in my earlier post:

    1. I don't see how Jessie could be interpreted as trying to control Rick or use him to kill her husband. If you want to refute what I said, please suggest something more concrete from the show that supports your interpretation of her actions. I'm an Occam's Razor kind of person most of the time. The simplest explanation is that Jessie was sincere in all that she said and did. What is the evidence that she was a lying manipulator, even as she was still being psychologically worked over by fear of her husband? I don't see a strong case for that in the acting, the writing, or the presentation and imagery. (Maybe there's some hard context I don't know about from the GN you could mention? It wouldn't necessarily apply to the TV series, but it would be something.)

    2. You're definitely on to something with the owls being a pattern and a sign of danger but I think it's more similar to the "A" symbol (which has also recurred in the same place). You say your post is not about the "A." Of course not, I wasn't saying it was. I was drawing what I thought was an interesting parallel. Both "A" and "Owl" are symbolic signs of danger, but they mean different things.

    You said:
    Notice I took no issue with this part of your post (nor with much of what follows). This is what I was relating to the "A." It's not only because they're similar in that way but also because they both appear together with the Anderson family. (Heck, if you want to continue with your interpretation of Jessie's motives being underhanded though, you could have said the "A" means she's the one trapping him. Obviously that's not what I think, but the point is that these symbols can interrelate no matter how you fill in the details.)

    There's a question I forgot to touch on before:
    You mention the owl they find at the house in 3x1 but then you seem to connect it to a conversation between Rick and Lori that happened later on, after they cleared the prison yard. Can you explain how a prison yard conversation relates to the sighting of an owl in a house that happened before they found the prison? (Later on, I'll have a quick look at the ep myself and see if I can find a connection. I know Lori tried to talk with Rick a few times, so maybe there's a related convo she tried to have with him in the house with the owl?) I'd actually like to see this owl related to Lori, because of the more specific interpretation I was beginning to propose earlier:

    Much like the "A," the "Owl" is a symbolic sign of danger. While "A" means "trap" however, the owl thing might be about a mother (and children) being endangered. If so, then it would first foreshadow Lori's death (+ Judith's in the comics if it appeared there), then there's the nice catch you had from S4 (a mother that apparently killed her children and herself), then Jessie (tattoo) and her house/family (sculpture) would be the ones in danger in S5-6. My point is that I was saying in Jessie's case the owl can refer to her (and her kids) being in danger-- first from her husband and then from walkers. (Associating with them was a dangerous trap for Rick and Carl as well though, and hence "A".)

    Your theory starts of talking about the symbology of owls traditionally announcing death. That interpretation is the only one that stays consistent throughout all owl appearances (assuming you're right that Lori is connected to the first one). I realize you might want to focus on wisdom to see through "masks" and "deceit" but then wouldn't that mean Jessie is the one who has that wisdom if the owl is on and around her? And what "masks" or "deceit" would be in play during earlier sightings of owls from previous seasons? Why pick a different meaning for the owl every time it appears?

    So again, please notice I agreed with a good 3/4ths of what you posted. I really meant it when I said I liked and appreciated your post. I just don't see how some of the conversations you linked to the owls are supposed to be related, or why Jessie has to be an evil schemer and the owls somehow have to take on a new meaning in her case, just to accommodate that interpretation about Jessie.


    We already agree Rick went after Jessie as a substitute Lori, then. It's just the Jessie "going after" Rick part I'm not seeing. Deanna asked Jessie to deliver that basket of supplies to Rick's house. If she wanted it delivered later, you'd think she'd ask her to do it later. I don't see what's so terrible about her offering a haircut. Considering Lori clearly knew what she was doing when cutting Carl's hair in S1 and may well have done their haircuts at home before the ZA, it could be the beginning the association with Lori in Rick's mind and Jessie would have no way of knowing this.) Fishing for the name of someone's spouse doesn't automatically mean you're trying to pick them up. If he had named Michonne for example, she'd have the opportunity to hear about her at that point. Then later comes the obligatory "Rick has told me so much about you!" To me it's just small talk unless there's further reason to read into it.

    I just rewatched S5 over the last week or so. From what I saw, Rick was clearly the one-way pursuer of Jessie. You might fault her for waiting too long to explicitly ask him to stop, but just like Rick should be credited for never intending to fire that gun he waved around after the struggle with Pete, so should Jessie be credited for not intending to pursue a relationship with him just because he happened to move in. He's the one that made all the moves to advance things, not her. And she did tell him to stop, even if it came late. I'm sorry if I come on strong but I think I might have had a visceral reaction to the idea a victim of abuse could be a cunning manipulator while she is still living under threat of further abuse. A person being physically abused by a partner who is supposed to love and protect her ALSO needs her space from romantic relationships to rekindle her sense of self and her independence. There is no such thing as ongoing physical abuse without psychological abuse being part of the package. Abuse makes you feel like a small nobody who can't do anything for yourself, and taunts you with the idea you probably "deserve" it somehow. Jessie's toothless claims that she can "protect herself" are consistent with an abuse victim's desperate struggle to overcome that bullying inner voice. Rick is my (close-)second favourite character after Michonne, and I sympathize with what he is also going through in his head at the time, but he's far and away the one in the wrong here, based on what I know of from the story itself. If I can't persuade you, we can agree to disagree but personally I'd need something more concrete to support the idea of her intentionally egging him on or "lying" when she asked him to stop. To me, the only way that would make sense is if she somehow knew she reminded him of Lori, AND there were very clear indicators beyond that in the writing/presentation.
     
    Gooey Goobert likes this.
  18. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    1. I don't see how Jessie could be interpreted as trying to control Rick or use him to kill her husband. If you want to refute what I said, please suggest something more concrete from the show that supports your interpretation of her actions.

    This first thing out of her mouth was a lie "I can take care of myself"... Coming from a woman who gets beaten regularly by her husband , who has also permanently injured her son.

    Jesse is a liar.
     
    #18 Barbarossa-TWD, Jun 18, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
  19. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Don't you think she could also be in denial though, or putting up a front? It's not exactly uncommon for abused individuals to refuse help at first, after all. I'm sorry my last post was so long but I made a comment about the psychological abuse that automatically comes along with physical abuse (under the spoiler tag):
    (*because you couldn't stop it)
    For someone to be a liar, not only does it have to be intentional, but it has to be a pattern of behaviour that exists in different situations. The intentionality of this "lie" is already dubious to me, but am I missing a pattern of her of "lying" about other topics?

    I also finished with: