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Reedus :"Cliffhangers have been happening since the beginning of entertainment..."

Discussion in '6x16: Last Day on Earth' started by tuswig, Apr 6, 2016.

  1. Chaos

    Chaos Richonne 2KForever
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    I never put the blame solely on Daryl so I feel like you're basing that off of my original post. Everyone has dirt on their hands with this situation with the Saviors however my stance will remain the same. I personally feel like Daryl has more dirt on his hands than the rest of TF. He, in my opinion, was the catalyst of some situations, ie my original post. Plus, it's about time he gets some blame, because to me, he never gets it. He could've started the apocalypse but people would go to bats to defend him and manage to find a way to blame Rick and the others. So yes, I blame Daryl. Why? Because he deserves the blame. I'm not the only one who feels this way. Others in this thread have said it. Others agreed with my original post. I'm not saying your wrong but I definitely don't think I'm wrong either. Good discussion but I'm sticking with what I said.
     
  2. Nightmare

    Nightmare FAIRY PRINCESS♚
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    I definitely get what you mean and I agree. When I saw those parts of the episode, I was thinking the same in the back of my mind, like...when did Carol stop faking her anxiety and actually start having it?

    Why was Denise being insistent on leaving when she knew she was their only doctor?

    Why are all the best people leaving, who will defend ASZ if anyone comes?

    So, it definitely does look like the writers driving the characters for the sake of plot, rather than letting it all happen naturally.

    I suppose in that sense, where he tried to save Dwight, it can be seen as a catalyst, but it just rubs me the wrong way to place blame on him for trying to help somebody, you know?

    That person messes him over, and it leads to him and Rosita, Glenn and Michonne being kidnapped and Denise being killed.

    But then again, like MamaGrimes said, what was Denise doing out there to begin with? Looks like the writers had to kill her to force the others to drive to Hilltop to save Maggie and also setting off Daryl vs. Dwight.

    But it's all forced by Gimple. Denise threatening to go anyway if Daryl and Rosita didn't, put them in the situation where they either take her with, or pull a Carl and lock her in the closet.

    He does deserve some of the blame, but in my opinion, while technically he was involved in what happened in the case of Dwight kidnapping them, his head practically being placed on a pike for trying to help Dwight to begin with... =/

    At least with Daryl, Rick and the group, they all made the collective decision to kill the Saviors, resulting in them being captured. In that respect, Daryl and everyone else deserves blame.

    But overall, the lazy writing by Gimple and co. Is the major factor in this. And the finale sealed this for me.
     
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  3. JayHey

    JayHey Hiding in Dale's RV

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    I agree 110%. It's everybody's responsibility. You're right they would've ended up in Negan's clutches anyway because they killed his people. Negan was coming for them whether by ambushing them when they had to leave Alexandria or knocking down the gate to get in. Negan is the hell and high water (shout out to Papa Pope).
     
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  4. Nightmare

    Nightmare FAIRY PRINCESS♚
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    Well then he's wrong. Rick asked everybody at the church what their decision was, he specifically stated it's not up to him, and asked if anybody had any other ideas. The only one who objected at the church was Morgan. Ironically enough, he ends up being spared from the lineup.
     
  5. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Not only that, Rick didn't want anyone else to go on the trip to Hilltop. It was just going to be Rick, Carl, and Maggie on the road (out of necessity), but everyone else asked to tag along.

    NR also said in another interview that the events of the finale wouldn't have mattered even if Rick's group had not killed Negan's men.

    So really people are just throwing Rick under the bus for fun. Rick was cocky, arrogant, I get it. It had to bite him in the ass. But Rick's actions? Weren't really the problem. The Saviors were bad people. Rick put it to a vote. Everything Rick did was actually logical except his attitude.

    I understand Rick feeling guilty, but feeling guilty and actually being guilty are two different things entirely.
     
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  6. SweetDee85

    SweetDee85 Richonne Trash
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    I'm confused on how precious Carol is blameless in all this???? She took part in/agreed to the raid, and because she was arguing all out in the open with a grown woman (Maggie) about what she should or shouldn't be doing, they were kidnapped. She killed her fair share of Saviors and burned even more people (her speciality apparently). Then to top it all off, she picked the worst time to have a conscience all of a sudden and leave TF. She didn't even go back to warn TF that the Saviors knew where there community was. If she did, maybe they wouldn't have gone half cocked to the Hilltop. Nah, I'm not letting the "Queen of the Apocalypse" off scot free. I don't know about anyone else but I am sick and tired of Daryl and Carol always getting a pass. NOT ON MY WATCH!
     
  7. Jenna Alaki

    Jenna Alaki " I'm gonna try "
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    That actually was my beef with that episode. They told her plainly they were on their way to Alexandria. Her love for them is a component of why she said she had to leave but in a normal situation, something in you would have overridden your drive to run away and you would have marched yourself back home. If the saviours car didn't start, the adrenaline coursing through her veins from the terror of that incident would have caused her to set aside her emotional state and she would have WALKED back to ASZ, dripping blood and all, to save her family because something is going down.

    And let's not talk about having Glenn and Michonne stand still whilst talking. Ughh, so obvious something's going to happen. If they really wanted them captured, they could have done that scene with Dwight and co. pursuing them or something. I'm sure they could have still done the mocking jay whistle if they really needed the whistle.

    I also agree that the situation with the saviours was almost an inevitable one. Look at the size of their operation? Could you imagine if Deanna was still in charge? It is their custom to kill someone 'right of the bat'. Someone would've bit the dust anyway. At least they got captured because they what doing what they do best - being a family.
     
  8. Nightmare

    Nightmare FAIRY PRINCESS♚
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    I completely forget that Carol knew that Saviors were watching ASZ! It is super out of character for her not to go back and tell her family, no matter what she was trying to do at the moment.

    This only continues to prove (imo), that the characters were being forced to do situations for plot sake, rather than flowing naturally.
     
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  9. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I wrote this for Tumblr b/c I still sometimes see Rick blamed for this.

    Here’s a timeline of Rick’s interaction with the Saviors:

    He first hears about the Saviors from Jesus (apparently because this group doesn’t communicate because Daryl, Abe, and Sasha barely escaped from the Saviors with their lives). Rick is told they’re a group of assholes who have Hilltop under their thumb, ordering them to give over half their supplies. They have a penchant for kidnapping people’s family members to force people to cut off the heads of their community leader. Oh, and they kill 16-year-olds for fun.

    Daryl comes up with the idea of killing the Saviors as a trade negotiation tactic then proceeds to downplay the Saviors (with Abraham as wingman) and calls Negan the “boogeyman”. This is, of course, an overblown statement, because had it not been for the rocket launcher, they’d be toast.

    But Rick is like “Sure, why the hell not.” Because, hey, he trusts Daryl and Abe. Besides, these Saviors sound like bullies. They’ve been terrorizing these nice people (Hilltop). Sounds like cleaning up the trash.

    As part of the trade, they have to retrieve Craig (Ethan’s brother). Rick knows they have to act quickly in order to save Craig – and also because the Saviors are no doubt aware of Alexandria by now and will strike first if they don’t. It’s their advantage to lose.

    Rick brings the idea to everyone at the church meeting in Alexandria; he asks people to vote. The only person – ONLY PERSON – to disagree with the plan is Morgan.

    … but Morgan’s counter plan? Which Rick is willing to hear? “Let’s talk to them.” AKA “Let’s give away our only advantage (the first attack) and completely ignore everything Jesus told us about these people (kill 16-year-olds; demand people decapitate their leader; steal; attacked Rick’s group once already)”.

    Still, Rick listens, and asks everyone if they would rather go with Morgan’s plan (even though he doesn’t agree). No one says a damn thing.

    Rick proceeds to lead the group (after carefully formulating a plan) to the outpost. They successfully save Craig without one casualty. Barring the alarm going off, it went off without a hitch.

    … Except Carol and Maggie are kidnapped, but manage to escape (and kill all the Saviors to boot). So hey, no harm no foul. Rick comes at the tail end of this encounter to kill a guy who says he’s Negan. Rick presumably assumes this is all over. (Once again, apparently no one in this group talks to one another because Carol had the pleasure of hearing them all go into their cultish “We’re all Negan” thing)

    Rick only becomes aware it’s not over when Daryl, Abe, Rosita, and Eugene make it back from their fatal run in with Dwight.

    After this encounter (and Denise’s death), Rick is on high alert. In 6x14, people can be seen preparing for war, which is presumably why Carol then runs away – because she knows she’ll have to kill.

    Worried for Carol, Rick and Morgan leave to track her down. Before he leaves, Rick wisely orders no one else to go. (He’s clearly displeased Daryl ran off on some weird goose chase and Michonne, Glenn, and Rosita pursued.)

    Rick gets back to the ASZ, distraught Michonne, Glenn, Rosita, and Daryl aren’t back, still upset that Morgan and Carol are still out there, to then learnMaggie is suffering from a potential miscarriage. Rick leaps into "dad” mode, determined to get Maggie the help she needs.

    Rick does NOT ask anyone else to go. He only intended to take Maggie and Carl. Abe, Sasha, Eugene, and Aaron all forced themselves to come on the trip. (Meaning Rick is not responsible for them being outside those gates.)

    Turns out the Saviors just had all the roads blocked – perhaps tipped off, perhaps just lying in wait – that Rick’s group would eventually try to get to Hilltop. They’re corralled and cornered just by being outnumbered. (One RV versus a post-ZA army?)

    … So how in the heck is any of this Rick’s fault?

    I understand Rick feeling the weight of guilt since he’s the leader, but when broken down, Rick had very little to do with the conflict with the Saviors going so pear-shaped. It was bound to happen anyway. Eventually, Negan and co. would’ve targeted Alexandria and they would be in this same exact pickle.

    Truth be told, Rick needed a kick in the ass due to his arrogance and hubris, and I think this will be a cold bucket of water shocking him back to planet Earth, but Rick didn’t really have many options.

    The ASZ needed food, Daryl offered a suggestion the Hilltop seemed to like, Rick had no reason to think the Saviors were that big a threat (but he had many reasons to believe they were awful people); his plan actually worked; and only did crazy circumstances (Maggie’s sickness) force him into a vulnerable position (made even more vulnerable because everyone forced themselves to come along for the ride).
     
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  10. Nightmare

    Nightmare FAIRY PRINCESS♚
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    I agree that Rick being blamed would be stupid. It might happen, but it will not make any sense. From his POV, it was the best option, and even though Morgan's idea wasn't the best, we didn't see anybody else coming up with other options.

    They all had their chance to say something and they didn't, they all collectively agreed on this option. So any future blamers can take a seat, seriously.
     
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  11. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Yeah that's the thing. I can see Rick taking responsibility as the leader (because that's what a good leader does), but none of Rick's actions directly led to this happening.