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Discussion/Meta S.S. GLUCILLE: All Aboard! [Who did Negan kill? Glenn!]

Discussion in 'Speculation Archive' started by Doctor Grimes, Apr 13, 2016.

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  1. Tater

    Tater Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    Talk about whether your character is dead or not, whether TPTB jumped the shark, etc., is not development. I don't blame Daryl, but between Daryl and Glenn, I feel that Daryl's story has been told and his death wouldn't discredit his importance. I don't feel the same with Glenn. Even when he was thought to be dead, no one really cared except Maggie and of all people, Aaron. After he rose from the dead, his only substantive dialogue was (excluding Maggie) Enid. What kind of send off is that for a beloved character? I do think Morgan was screwed, but we did get to see a story about how he got to where he is. I hate the fact that they are using him to develop Carol. But again, he won't die in ep 1 (we don't think anyway) so there is a possibility that he will get more of a story independent from how his existence affects Carol.
     
  2. gootvansquid

    gootvansquid Caressing Eugene's Mullet

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    i somewhat disagree on no one seeming to care except Maggie when Glenn was missing. Rick and her spoke about it, others mentioned it, but (especially given the current chain of events that were in motion at the time with the herd coming and other group members missing as well) Maggie was the only one who would essentially fixate on that only, day in-day out. I am absolutely sure people cared, it was just madness at that time and only one of many things going awry. they all know Glenn is a smooth enough operator that just because he's absent, doesn't mean he's dead.

    so with a lot happening, the limited time set aside dedicated to the fretting and worry over him.. they gave 90% of it to Maggie. the best choice, in my opinion.

    Up until dumpstergate, Glenns time was fairly average given it was during an extended action sequence in which many characters were participating. he definitely got his fair share screen time during that chain of events, up until dumpster time.

    I want to break down the episodes, noting Glenn presence as well as how divided the focus of the episode was.

    1. Flashbacks to account for time between seasons. The herd intro and breakout madness (Glenn equal time as others), mutiny, scramble. Glenn demonstrates his unwavering empathy+nature (focus: whole group/rick)
    2. in the meantime in Alexandria, Wolves attack gets full episode. (focus: wolves/carol/morgan)
    3. Plenty of Glenn, big focus on Glenn at end. dumpstergate. rick very concerned for Glenn. glenn again showcasing his emapthy+nature (focus: Michonne+Glenn prevalent in "away group")
    -4. "morgan 2.0" origin episode- (focus: Morgan)
    5. Rick races to beat the herd to Alexandria to warn them. Rick again concerned for Glenn. Maggie and Aaron try to go look for Glenn but can't. she reveals she's pregnant with Glenns child. much worry/discussion of Glenn. (focus: alexandria group/where's Glenn?)
    -6. intro Dwight, Saviors omen, Sasah+Abe, some Daryl characterization/development.- (focus: missing group+Dwight-Daryl relationship)
    7. Glenn returns. Glenn delivers much inspirational speech upon his return, via Enid. "Saves" Enid. Glenn looks for a way past the herd to reach the precious. Carol+Morgan development. (Focus: Glenn)
    8. little to no Daryl, Sasha, Abe. herd breaks in, all hell breaks loose. not a ton of Glenn, he's still looking to get through the herd, which is now advancing on his precious. (focus: Alexandria group)
    9. Death, madness, eyes being shot out, kids getting bit on the head, Rick hacks his girlfriends hand off, Michonne stabs a kid, zombie melee massacre and pyrotechnic extravaganza, Glenn manages to survive all sorts of obstacles just in the nick of time to save Maggie and is promptly almost killed AGAIN, and we have their reunion. (focus: everyone)
    10. According to this forum site, Richonne happens and seemingly nothing else :omgno: :o: ( if i remember right, there was a strange happy cartoon before the scene.. it involved rick daryl and a guy named jesus letting off firecrackers, ghost riding cars and other hijinx with Ronnie Dee Dawson as the soundtrack ;) ) (focus: Jesus. Richonne) (why Daryl is with on this? to bring up his prior experience and keep the saviors in mind, along with more of the flip flopping on outsiders he and rick seem to have)
    11. trip to hilltop. set-up for saviors. Glenn and Maggie get as much screen time as anyone else, Maggie most of all.
    12. Attack on savior compund. Glenn makes his first kill, "sacrificing" his nature in order to protect his family and friends. he then spares Heath(?) from this by doing it again. immediately he sees the lucille victim photos, and gets some more action time. (focus: whole assault group. glenn prominent)
    13. Carol and Maggie episode. (Focus: Carol, a bit of Maggie, who is Negan??)
    14. Abe+Eugene. bullet making setup. Eugene evolves. Denise. Rosita (for once), Daryl along for Dwight encounter/saviors (focus: Denise, Abe+Eugene)
    15. Carol, Morgan, Rick, Daryl, Glenn, Michonne, Rosita, all in peril. Maggie's in trouble, where is Glenn? (last time he almost died repeatedly in order to be there to save Maggie. he's not there, he had to pursue Daryl, who's bent on vengeance and not thinking clearly. it's Daryls fault Glenn is captured) (focus: Hellllllllllllllp)
    16. HELLLLLLP - Negan

    so as illustrated here, he actually was fairly prevalent in the storytelling even when he wasn't around, which WAS roughly 5 1/2 -6/12 episodes (less than half the season) when you add it up. I feel like It was just the atrociousness of the Dumpster stunt we are most angry about, not an actual lack of Glenns significance in any way.

    one could argue Glenn actually spoke more words than Daryl over the course of the season lol

    whether they dumpstered Glenn because they needed to focus on other elements/characters, or he secretly needed to be somewhere and it was a quick & poorly thought solution, or they wanted to test the audience for possibly Glucille; whatever the case may be, i don't think Glenn was cut AS BADLY as some would suggest. As i understand it they churn out episodes fairly quickly, and maybe later on, realize they made a mistake as they look at it in full.

    Sadly it makes all logical sense for it to be Glenn who gets the bat. maybe it's best to assume it IS him, rather than hoping it's not. because it's better to be pleasantly surprised than have your hopes smashed. just a thought.
     
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  3. Danaisbestie

    Danaisbestie Rick's ride or die
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    For me personally I thought Glenn got screen time but I felt like the focus was around him dying or Maggie's pregnancy which to me isn't really a focus on who he was to the group.

    We did get to see that he still had the same heart in how he could still try and help Nicholas and even still helped Enid after almost dying because of Nicholas's weakness. It could be argued that his speech to Enid was something that will carry on (I can see her repeating these words to Maggie as she grieves) but it's hard for me to feel like it was sufficient when you look at the whole season.

    Glenn would be the first major character from the Atl camp to die since Andrea (correct me if I'm wrong) to me that screams major heartfelt screen time/l story arc. Not...did you die? Wow your wife is pregnant, Oh you didn't die, yay! Dang you almost died again, oh wow look at baby gleggie, damn You killing people now? You're really going after Daryl, damn you got kidnapped, head bash...end of season/end of life :tdog:

    Doesn't match up to Hershel's episodes prior to his death. Hershel was saving lives on one leg, shooting walkers, giving speeches, sharing his wisdom and interacting with other major characters in a meaningful way, even had a meaningful talk with the man that took his life. That's why his death is still considered one of the most gut wrenching. Something similar us what I would have expected for Glenn.
     
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  4. gootvansquid

    gootvansquid Caressing Eugene's Mullet

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    agreed that is what he deserves. i still think he spent this whole past season a. showing his character/protecting/helping people and b. making us think he died. these both feel like lead up to his death, the latter being a poor way to do so, but they're probably terrified to go through with it, or to make the wrong choice - and in so being, made the wrong choice in pulling the dumpstergate test.

    what he deserves is definitely not to be suddenly and unexpectedly murdered in horrifyingly brutal fashion, but that's what he got in the original story, and it was sudden and unjust there as well. maybe they want it to feel that way. maybe they didn't give him a usual send-off because the character who gets this death isnt supposed to have one(though i believe in this case he'll have the send-off AFTER the death, if indeed Glenn is the victim), it's the sudden brutal nature of ending a life unfulfilled that upsets us. i don't know.. it's going to hurt. i'de be inclined to think we've just begun the second act of TWD, and there is plenty of upsetting deaths and emotion to come. If it IS Glenn, i just hope people realize he was most likely chosen for the same reasons he was in the comics. it was a driving story point, and i don't think Daryls death, or anyone elses, would drive the story logically in the same way :/

    this trail of thought keeps leading me to the same question: is there record of what the crew had to say about the dumpster debacle? an explanation? i'de love to hear it.
     
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  5. Danaisbestie

    Danaisbestie Rick's ride or die
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    I remember Kirkman saying something along the lines of the Lucille death being brutal and random and shocking which was why it had such an impact on the reader and that they were going to try and recreate that same feeling for the TV viewer (impossible because with the cliffhanger is all anybody can talk about and not in a I can't believe that happened way but in a who was it way which isn't the same)

    Gimple and Co tried to justify dumpstergate the same way they tried to justify the cliffhanger....they wanted the audience to be a part of the world the characters are in..to have that sense of not knowing if Glenn was ok because in the ZA there are no phones, when someone leaves you don't know if they are coming back. You just have to wait it out....so that's what they were trying to accomplish supposedly :tdog: same thing with the cliffhanger, Gimple said he wanted the audience to feel like they were in the lineup :sasha:

    I'm still not sold on the idea that Glenn's death would drive the story more than Daryl's except I see people having a reason to grieve his death more. He was close to everyone whereas Daryl's people are Rick and Carol only. I think in that lineup Sasha is the only one that hasnt had personal interaction with Glenn.
     
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  6. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Killing Glenn just doesn't work for me. Not even because of dumpster gate or lack of screen time even. (Though those play into my ire as well)

    It's just predictable. It is what everyone (and I mean a whole hell of a lot of people) are believing is going to happen.

    The point in the comic was shock and awe. Killing Glenn was massive. He was the most popular character in the comic at the time he died (or damn near close). It was a big damn deal. No one saw it coming.

    The writers have been throwing around the spoiler of Glenn's death casually for seasons. They've made lampshades references to it. They ended the finale on a cliffhanger so everyone will Google "Who does Negan kill?"

    There's a reason my super gen audience parents told me: "Oh, so Glenn died then?"

    It just doesn't make sense to do it this way if it was going to be the same as the comic all along. It's stupid. It's bad storytelling. Arguably it's bad storytelling already (duh lol) but jeezus. This would be just another layer of shit packed on.
     
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  7. MamaGrimes

    MamaGrimes 100% Certified Shipper Trash
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    My thoughts to your keyboard....thank you.

    Yes, there are references to Glenn and baseball bats going all the way back to his very first appearance wearing a baseball cap. Yes, Glenn died by Lucille in the GN. Yes, Glenn got his first kill last season. Yes, Rick and all of TF will mourn Glenn if he dies by Lucille and will want to avenge his death.

    NONE OF THAT makes up for the fact that Glenn, the man who saved Rick from certain death in the second episode of this series, an original Atlanta 5 cast member, had no build up to his death. Gimple loves building up characters before their death. Are you telling me Beth, BETH(?) gets a bottle episode and Glenn gets a spread out bunch of scenes portraying himself doing Glenn like things before dying??

    I call bullshit. That's not good storytelling. That's sacrificing a character for the 'AHA! Got you!' moment.

    Glenn died in the GN. Been there done that. Let's do something else, shall we? I'm positive Glenn will die in the next season or two...hell many of the characters will, but I want to see him get the big finish he deserves, not some cop out orchestrated for shock factor.
     
  8. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Aaaaand there's one of the things that makes me saltiest. :salt:
     
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  9. gootvansquid

    gootvansquid Caressing Eugene's Mullet

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    the beth death scene was beyond stupid.

    i haven't read the GNs but i have heard a decent enough amount about future events that were clearly driven by glenns death, directly or indirectly - so without reading the story it SOUNDS like it makes for good storytelling. i mean, if it's a major plot point, who cares if it's predictable? (aside from the reason being they turned it into a cliffhanger)

    the way i feel, to me that's like saying they should've had Snape kill Hagrid instead of Dumbledore because it's from the book and that's too predictable. (i know we can analyze this comparison and point out many differences, it's just the first example that popped in my head lol). Or.. have Rick get together with Rosita instead of Michonne because it's too predictable :ham:

    BUT if they can competently replace Glenns death as cause for other important plot to stem from, fine i guess, make it whoever. but if they are deviating from one of if not the biggest of storylines in TWD, they better have much better justification for it than simply to make it a surprise. it pretty much sentences them to re-writing everything.(i know they already do, but this would be an extreme re-write.

    the only other member i'de be okay with getting Lucilled is Daryl. I like em both, don't want either of them dead. but the impact is there with either (Glenn more).

    TWD isn't of the happily ever after type, and AMC certainly doesn't strive for that type of story either - so i don't know what people expect to become of Glenn if he gets a get out of jail free card on this one. characters of his nature have bad luck on TWD, i doubt he and maggie will build a cottage on the hilltop and grow old sipping tea there. more than likely he'll die later anyway :( i haven't put it past them to punk us by killing a more minor character in the premier, and then suddenly glenn out of nowhere a short time later (after the dumpster, it wouldn't surprise me one bit).

    anyway i'm going to attempt to stop ranting and speculating and just keep an eye on the filming updates!
     
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  10. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Having read the comics (though it has been a while) I can honestly say I don't think it was who died that was so important. Glenn being the victim didn't change much of the story at all. The main point was Negan killed someone they love and wanted to avenge. In this show, this could happen with several characters.
     
  11. Denie39

    Denie39 Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Agree with all of this.

    I also agree that the Lucille death seems to be unique in that it was sudden and random, and maybe that's what they're trying to emulate from the comics. Did Glenn get highlighted a ton before he died in the comics? If not, then they're trying to stay close to source material on this one. Perhaps the element of surprise, in terms of who the victim will be, is not what they are going for here.
     
  12. Canuckgirl

    Canuckgirl Ricktator

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    He wanted to leave and go to the Hilltop because he saw the ASZ being a dangerous place. They had been attacked twice by the Saviors, which prompted his need to move to a safer community. They were en route there when they were taken by Negan and he got Lucille'd. To be honest, there are rarely moments highlighted to make you aware of who will die next. Most of the major deaths took me by surprise. Never expected Lori to die the way she did, nor Tyrese or Dale, and so on
     
  13. Denie39

    Denie39 Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I figured Glenn was active, but did he have some big arc before he died in the comics? It sounds like he didn't, but just going about his business and then he was murdered out of no where. I think with previous deaths (on the show), in retrospect, some see a lot of focus on the character pre-death. That's what some are complaining about with Glenn.
     
  14. Canuckgirl

    Canuckgirl Ricktator

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    Not that I recall, no big arc, except to make sure that ASZ was secure and protecting the community against the herd and the Marauders. No big whoop. The same could be said about the other characters. Kirkman definitely does not do big buildups, that is more of a TV thing
     
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  15. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Precisely, it's not a comic phenomenon -- just a TV one. And even so it's more of a Gimple-ism than a TWD-ism. The big lead ups to deaths was a thing under Gimple's tenure; however, it could be argued T-Dog's startling line count in 3.04 heralded his demise; likewise, Andrea having a lot of screen time near the end of season 3 was a marker she wasn't long for this world.
     
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  16. Denie39

    Denie39 Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Some characters got good send-offs and others didn't. T-dog is one that didn't. Tyreese got his in the episode that he died, nothing super major happened with him before that.
     
  17. Danaisbestie

    Danaisbestie Rick's ride or die
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    It's not always the amount of screen time but how they utilize it to showcase who the person was. Beth's screentime in Grady was to show how much she had grown, that she was strong and could survive (remember she was the one that cut her wrists on the farm) Tyrese's episode was similar showing that he was just too good for this brutal world. Those were the last two major deaths...everyone else since has been a second tier characters but even Noah got to showcase his optimism before he died. Oh well, what's done is done so I'm not going to beat this dead horse anymore, lol I've still got my fingers crossed for Daryl but my brain says Glenn
     
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  18. gootvansquid

    gootvansquid Caressing Eugene's Mullet

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    at about 28 min mark in this interview, anyone know what she's talking about in reference to Glenn? they discuss the sewer scene with Aaron, and then she talks about Glenn after that. it sounds like she's talking about AFTER the sewer, but it's hard to tell.

     
  19. Mousey

    Mousey Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    Yeah, I think she's talking about that sequence, since Glenn almost (AGAIN) sacrifices himself to help Maggie & Enid get to safety. Plus maybe dumpstergate, about the "as soon as somebody's safe" bit, since that's exactly what happens between 607 and 609.
     
  20. DixonGrimes

    DixonGrimes Good to see u again baby" Norman R said to ME 10/2
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    Steves post from 2 hours ago...looks like the woods where lucielle took place. And they had night filming the other day...I do look at the clues on the show but the actors real life actions/behavior is what I look at the most. Just saying, he's the only cast member posting stuff like this. Before this week I fully believed in Abecielle now I think it's looking more and more like Glenn.

    image.jpeg
     
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