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Spoilers Summary for 7.03 from TWD Zone

Discussion in '7x03: The Cell' started by anya7890, Nov 2, 2016.

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  1. Canuckgirl

    Canuckgirl Ricktator

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    In the comics he says it when Holly goes kamikaze and one of guys try to rape her. So that will project come later
     
  2. Butler36

    Butler36 What?
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    I think the fact that Saviors can't leave (to the main point of the episode being a man trying to escape the compound) means that consent is nil here for men or women. You can't say choice exists in a situation where a group will chase you down for trying to leave or will kill you and put you on display as a warning to others. Even if the person who did the summary didn't quite get what Sherry was implying right, the circumstances of how Sanctuary is run denotes no choices. It is Negan's way or it is death. In those circumstances it is hard to conceive that at the very least Negan isn't committing coercion rape with these women even if they "choose" to be with him because if they try to escape they die. If they anger him, they die. If they look the wrong way, they die.

    Not a lot a wiggle room for me in that instance.
     
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  3. Canuckgirl

    Canuckgirl Ricktator

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    Yeah, I was thinking the same, but it seems a lot of people on here are already jumping to conclusions
     
  4. Canuckgirl

    Canuckgirl Ricktator

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    That is a far cry from being a rapist. You can be a tyrant and not be a rapist. The first emperor of China was a tyrant yet had willing women as his concubines. In the comics they make it a point to show the women willingly choosing to be with him because the alternative, which was the point-system where you had to fight to get something was not ideal
     
  5. Mousey

    Mousey Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    I don't think it's impossible that they change him to be a rapist, but I just honestly don't think they will because of all the hype and PR they've pushed specifically on to the character of Negan, you know?

    Personally, I suspect it will be the same as the comic, with Negan offering the ones he thinks are hot the option to join his harem and avoid the danger of manual labor and general grunt activities. Chelle was an attractive girl and she was on duty at the outpost, presumably because she denied Negan's offer seeing as she cared for her asshole boyfriend.

    Plus, we know Dwight and Sherry elected to go back from the TSDF summary. They chose to go back and Dwight doesn't even think he made the wrong choice, so I know there's way more context for the episode brewing underneath what we've got in this summary.

    It's still despotism and tyranny and really fucked up behavior though, no doubt about it.
     
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  6. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Same here. The fact they explicitly show a man unable to leave of his own free will makes the situation all the more icky and non-consensual. If you can't even be a Savior by choice alone, how can you truly choose to be a wife or not? There's no escape -- even if you want there to be.
     
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  7. Mousey

    Mousey Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    That's the thing though, if they take the GN approach (which I strongly suspect they will), the options aren't "have sex with Negan or get killed by him because you try and escape." During the face-ironing we see in the comics, he says it's either be faithful to him as a wife and stick to your agreement, or go back to working patrols like the other men and women who declined the offer. Escape isn't the only option available to wives and thus death isn't the only 'out' available for women who don't want to stay with Negan. It's a huge abuse of power but it really isn't the only option available to them.
     
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  8. Butler36

    Butler36 What?
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    The first emperor of China's women had the choice to leave and never deal with him again. These women do not. They don't have that choice. If they run away they are captured and death could be the penalty for them in the show. This is being framed differently from the comic where there seemed to be a bit of a blurry line. Here there is no blur. Again, even if the Sherry scene is misinterpreted the rest is not. In that atmosphere there is no consent. There can't be. What Negan is doing is the definition of coercion rape.

    The moment Negan tells his group he will track them down and display them in the courtyard if they ever leave or betray him (whatever betrayal means in his mind) is the moment choice leaves the building. And without choice, there can be no consent.
     
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  9. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    The fact they're showing that a man (Dwight's friend) can't even leave without getting hunted down tells me there is very little choice involved in anything the Saviors do. If the women join Negan's harem, it's more than likely that they feel they have zero choice in the matter. It doesn't sound like they're making this like, "Oh those lazy women spreading their legs for the perks." It sounds more like, "Shit, these women have no other option but to resort to fucking Negan to survive." And, if they cannot leave without getting hunted down and executed, then there is no choice.
     
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  10. Butler36

    Butler36 What?
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    But the show might not be going by the comic. At least what we are seeing here. The gist of the episode is that a man tries to escape and Dwight tracks him down and kills him. That the walkers that are displayed are former saviors who didn't "obey" and are put there for intimidation purposes. In the comic, none of these things are apparent or made plain so there is wiggle room. But the moment punishment is introduced to leaving and death is hanging there depending on how displeased Negan is on any given day? How can ladies really have a choice? How can any of the saviors really have a choice? Dwight comes back on his own but it wasn't for the lack of the Saviors trying to track him down like they are tracking down dude in the episode.
     
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  11. Mousey

    Mousey Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    The Saviors also couldn't leave in the comic either though, and it was explicitly stated, just not dramatized like this episode will be or the Dwight, Sherry and Tina episode was either. I know it changes the scenario some and was likely on purpose, to make us more sympathetic toward the Sanctuary-ites like Dwight and Sherry as well as the new faces we'll see who are unhappy under Negan's rule.

    But we still got that toss-off remark that "he only wants ass that's willing" in 606, and that's why I think they're going to stick with the GN on this particular aspect of Negan's character, so it'll be spun in the same way as the comic. That said, who knows? -- because if it turns out Tina already was a wife before they ran (which I hope we get a damned answer to this season), it changes everything, as that's pure exploitation of an ill person. There are a lot of ways it can go but we just don't know enough yet.
     
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  12. Danaisbestie

    Danaisbestie Rick's ride or die
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    Sherry getting all this focus means she's going to be Daryl's boo or die tragically to make Dwight turn to Rick's side.
     
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  13. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    But what are women expected to do who can't fight? Like Tina? She was diabetic and weak. If she chose to fight, that was a death sentence. Her only option was to fuck or die, really. Which, if you want to live, well... Coercive rape. :(
     
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  14. Butler36

    Butler36 What?
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    But "he only wants ass that is willing" is Negan's perception of what he's doing. Not what the women actually feel or believe about their circumstances. Just because he doesn't force them on the ground or physical dominate them does not mean that rape was not committed or a sexual violation was not committed. "Willing" is subjective in these circumstances, especially if there is no escape.
     
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  15. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    He also framed Rick cutting off Carl's arm as a "choice" -- so that gives the audience a good idea of what Negan thinks free will is.
     
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  16. Mousey

    Mousey Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    Shit, you're right, you and @Butler36. Like I said, I was never under the impression Tina was already a wife and that's why Sherry (plus Dwight) took her and bolted, so she could avoid that life for her little sister, but even in that circumstance the outcome is coercive rape, so there's intent, and that's best case scenario. You're so, so right. Tina is a smart addition because she actually makes it way less ambiguous, with an incurable illness instead, and not just the desire for a more secure life because she's afraid/weak.

    This is why Kirkman framed it the way he did, because the fuck or die dichotomy is also sort of there in the comics but it bothers people far less because it's less visceral. Because like Hershel monologued back in season 4, you're always risking your life in this world. To go out in that world is to have a huge chance you're gonna die, and they've made it here even more dangerous because if the zombies don't kill you, the Saviors will.
     
  17. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Yeah, I think Tina was meant to highlight how messed up it is. Because they don't even have the option to leave if they want. So even if Tina heard about this awesome community down the road, if she leaves, they will hunt her down and kill her. She has no choice at all. It's the Sanctuary or death. It's have sex with Negan or death. It's a lose-lose.
     
  18. Butler36

    Butler36 What?
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    Yep. I mean let's really look at what has been revealed about Negan in the show and how he operates.
    The other thing that makes it visceral is the fact that it is very clear that Tina does not want to go back and is terrified of the thought and if they got caught she was willing to beg for mercy for her sister and friends even though she was terrified of going back. So if they did catch her what would have happened to Tina? What would her choices really be? She would have slept with Negan not only to keep her family alive but also the choice is that or death.

    And that's not really a choice.
     
  19. Mousey

    Mousey Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    To make it worse, bring in all the other communities Negan subjugates, and you're basically at his whim even if you don't live at the HQ (even though that's definitely the worst concentration of the most creepy tyrannical tactics). I'm glad so far that we've only seen them take men as prisoners and hostages. :daleeye:
     
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  20. Denie39

    Denie39 Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    [​IMG]