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Poll THE BANISHMENT: Who did you side with?

Discussion in 'Season 4' started by Doctor Grimes, Mar 21, 2016.

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Who did you side with?

  1. Rick: He was right to excommunicate her because she never promised she wouldn't kill again

    46 vote(s)
    59.0%
  2. Carol: She was right because she was just trying her hardest to stop the infection

    2 vote(s)
    2.6%
  3. Neither of them: Rick shouldn't have banished her, but Carol shouldn't have killed either

    17 vote(s)
    21.8%
  4. Both of them: They both had their reasons for what they did, and both were right in their own ways

    13 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Alright, so, "Indifference" aired and caused strife within this fandom between fans of Rick and fans of Carol. To this day, this tension rages on.

    So, when this episode aired, who did you think was in the right? Rick for banishing Carol? Carol for killing Karen and David? Did both of them screw up? Or did both of them do what was right?
     
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  2. Latrice

    Latrice Watchtower Sniper
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    I wasn't in the fandom when this episode aired but when I watched it I always tended to side with Rick more then I did with Carol. Based off of where Rick's headspace was at the time and how Tyrese was reacting I get letting Carol go. At the point she was someone that he didn't really recognize and he made a good point...what if it had been one of them would she still have been so quick to kill them.

    Plus she never really gave an answer one way or another. I always felt and believed that Rick wanted her to show some kind of remorse but that just wasn't seen. Not to say Carol is unfeeling but at that time there was a sense of cold indifference to what she had done and I think that is one of the reasons Rick let her go. It is one thing to do whatever you have to do to survive in the moment, but Karen and David weren't really in the moment threats. They were potential threats who deaths didn't change anything or add anything. So although I know what Carol was trying to accomplish and why she did what she did, I have tended to fall more on the Rick's side of things.
     
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  3. Bazooka Jane

    Bazooka Jane On a pirate ship
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    I went with neither. On the one hand, I think Carol was really excessive with killing them like that (and it didn't even work, people still got sick). On the other hand, it's not like Carol was indulging in some series killer tendencies; it was unlikely they were gonna wake up one day to find her burning some Woodbury people for fun, so Rick probably didn't have to banish her, or at least didn't have to come to that conclusion alone. I don't exactly blame either them in the heat of the moment tho and it all worked out so whatever.
     
    #3 Bazooka Jane, Mar 21, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  4. deadaddict

    deadaddict Awaiting Job from Deanna
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  5. Nerdgasm

    Nerdgasm Nestled in Rick's Beard

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    I hate that this has been brought back up btw because this is the reason why I haven't warmed up to Carol like everybody else has.
    I sided with Rick. Because how are you going to straight up murder two sick people instead of trying to actively find medicine or some ish. She murdered those two and it still didn't even work so like...please.
     
  6. Misty Knight

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    I definitely wasn't involve in the twd fandom during this; THANK :jesus: I was with Rick because Carol didn't show any remorse and I thought that was cray b/c she knew these people and they were already isolated from everyone else. If it was Glenn and Sasha, she wouldn't have killed them or if Daryl was the one who had gotten sick, she wouldn't have killed him. I didn't have any negative feelings about what Carol did, but I completely supported Rick banishing her.
     
  7. day dreamer

    day dreamer Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    I absolutely hated this story and this was the darkest time in the fandom for me. I sided with Carol. I think both she and Rick were wrong about some things and right about others, but when Rick pulled the "No one will want you there." or whatever line that was, I thought that was cruel and it stuck me on Carol's side.

    I kind of hate that this is being brought up again because their reunion in No Sanctuary was beautiful and perfect and everything I wanted it to be and I like to generally pretend that Indifference never happened.
     
  8. Walkingonsunshine

    Walkingonsunshine One of the good things
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    I voted for neither being right. Carol had no right to do what she did but Rick should have let the council decide about her excommunication. I think for Rick he was just taken back by her lack of remorse for what she did and Carol just thought Rick was losing his edge as a leader.

    I really didn't know it caused such a rift until I became more a part of the online fandom last year because I like both characters and understood why they did what they did. I do think it's interesting that some fans can say what Rick did was cold while completely being okay or accepting Carol's motivations for doing something very cold as well.

    I think if you can understand one character's motivations you should be able to understand another's. I do think that Rick should have let the council vote on her fate but I do understand him being very concerned and thinking that the council vote may be too much bureaucracy knowing how worked up Ty was about Karen's death and seeing Carol being somewhat cold about what she felt she had to do.
     
    #8 Walkingonsunshine, Mar 21, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
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  9. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    I voted both.

    Carol's action was excessive and not something I would have done, which makes it harder for me to sympathize. And in hindsight, it is easy to say her actions were unnecessary. But I did understand her reasoning and her quick call to action (did not understand the execution. Why expose yourself to them? There are other ways to kill without risking yourself to the infection).

    I did think Rick was a bit harsh and the decision to banish should not have been for him to bear. They had a council at that point, so it really should have been a group decision. At the same time, I think Rick was trying to protect Carol from Tyreese. And he was convinced she could take care of herself.

    I understand exactly where both are coming from, so I can't make myself choose. I really liked their strife, but then I have always enjoyed character disagreements.
     
  10. Stranger Danger

    Stranger Danger Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    I went with neither. I thought Rick was a bit harsh in banishing her from the prison and it didn't benefit anyone, but she had no right to just kill Karen and David like that. She acted on impulse and went against the council and I think she got ahead of herself. I feel like Tyreese should've had a say in what to do with Carol.
     
  11. toytoy

    toytoy Wearing a Necklace of Ears

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    I voted Rick

    As much as I love Carol, and hated to see her kicked out , I did think Rick had every right to do what he did. I get that she thought she was helping the group but, she simply wasn't. Rick had every reason to be afraid of keeping Carol around...She murdered, in cold blood, ailing members of the group who she had been caring for. That makes her a very dangerous person who needs to be watched at all times. If Rick never figured out what she did, TF would have, IMO, been somewhat divided and wondering which 1 of them was capable of such atrocities.

    I dont think Carol is evil, and I do think she believe that she was helping the group, and in some twisted way she thought she was helping K&D....This in a lot of ways parallel the whole Lizzie thing. Lizzie was a danger to keep around because she was dangerous, and capable of killing "her own", Lizzie also believe she was helping her sister, and Carol, simply, couldn't risk keeping her around......Rick felt the exact same way...He didn't wanna sleep with 1 eye open just like Carol didn't.
     
  12. Lyra_Nation

    Lyra_Nation Young, scrappy, and hungry
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    I sided with Rick.

    I don't think Carol should have killed Kavid and then she acted indifferent to it all. And I was always of the mind that Rick didn't really have the power to "banish" her anyway. So the responsibility of another adult's life wasn't 100% on him. He told her to stay away, yes, but she CHOSE to stay away on her own. If she had followed him back to the prison, Rick wouldn't have been able to stop her. He wouldn't kill her. Lol. So if she would have just pulled a "season 3 Michonne" and stuck around even if Rick didn't want her there...there would be nothing he could, or would, do about it. The best he could do would be to try to get a majority vote from the people at the prison about what to do.

    Plus, honestly, I didn't pay much attention to Carol during this time in the narrative. So...there's that.
     
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  13. MamaGrimes

    MamaGrimes 100% Certified Shipper Trash
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    I wasn't part of the fandom but I had very strong feelings about this storyline and still do to this day. I thought this was manipulative writing 101 and very out of left field. Carol killing two people outright? With no real remorse conveyed to Rick? Come on. That's ridiculous and completely off the chain for a character who seemed to be a nurturer and caretaker for the community they had created. I was used to Rick doing impulsive things so his decision didn't surprise me as much but I couldn't believe he made that decision, as Farmer Rick, without consulting ANYONE. The writers just wanted the drama of the two of them parting ways but it was ridiculous to think that Rick wouldn't bring Carol's case to the council. They could've controlled Tyreese.

    When writing gets this OTT, I roll my eyes and shake my fist at the writers and don't hold it against the characters themselves because sooner or later their course is corrected. And, sure enough, a half season later, we get their beautiful reunion in 5.1. THAT's what I remember and think about when Rick and Carol, not this nonsense.
     
  14. ReeciePiecey

    ReeciePiecey Nestled in Rick's Beard
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    I sided with Rick on that situation. I think that Carol was out of control and there were multiple factors that led to the banishment. I think that he was basically trying to understand her that whole trip, he gave her so many chances but she was being so cold and strange that he finally decided he didn't trust her enough to take her back.

    Carol in my opinion has always had flawed logic. From season 1 on she has said and done some strange things. Her actions against Karen & David were not only ineffective but also short sighted. She should have known that too but didn't follow through with her reasoning skills. There were many options but she took the easier one. If she really wanted to save everyone why didn't she go get medicine? For all we know Karen or David could have recovered. Maybe they had been vaccinated previously and that would have given the group insight into the nature of the illness. She went for the simplest most drastic solution. Also Sasha and Glenn were exhibiting signs of the illness by that time so would she have killed them? Rick asked her about that and she didn't respond so how does he know she wouldn't have put down one of them or Carl if he was ill?

    Also what does that say about Carol? Its okay for her to kill innocent sick people as long as they aren' t part of the original family? That's pretty cold hearted and dangerous. Because who is her family? Is it just the Atlanta 5? Does that extend to Michonne? How do we know that she wouldn't eventually decide Judith was too dangerous to keep around. Her crying does draw walkers and its going to be years before she can control that.

    Also it wasn't just to keep her away from everyone else but to protect her from Tyreese. He was beating up Rick and Daryl and he knew they weren't even the killers so what do you think he would have done to Carol. This was before his I don't want to kill days. Rick ended up getting the best of him that time but there was no guarantee he would always be around.
     
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  15. WalkerVoodoo

    WalkerVoodoo Michonne's Shadow
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    Rick. It never even occurred to me until I went online weeks later that people could blame Rick for banishing a member of the group for killing other members of the group.
     
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  16. JBody

    JBody Survivor of Many Disasters
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    Neither. I thought it was really fucking OOC and stupid at the time. I felt Carol took a hard left turn in The Service of Plot and never really recovered from it. I guess they're working on her character now, as they always seem to do in the back halves of seasons, but
    having Carol leave ASZ as per the letter
    isn't really inspired writing to me. That's how Carol's cookie crumbles, I guess. They have foreshadowed the shit out of it for a long time so in a way I'd be happy if we got some real progress out of it.

    Rick also unilaterally banishing her was a bit OOC for me, as in over the top. I was not convinced that would be Rick's reaction -- to decide on his own to banish Carol because he can't "trust" her around his kids and he's "worried" about Tyreese's reaction. I didn't buy it and they shouldn't have sold it but too late now. This was the grey zone era of The Council right, so it wasn't a true Ricktatorship again. I can't remember all the details but I just found this whole thing heavy-handed as hell.

    The Carol I knew wouldn't have stabbed and burnt Karvid, who were in isolation (which is all the containment they were going to get), because it was stupid and panicky and wasn't going to contain the plague anyway. I think Derle kind of mentioned that, something along the lines of, "It's her, but it AIN'T HER..." and then deus ex Governor machina starts blowing the place up and we never hear of it again (from Derle).

    Obviously I find the whole Karvid thing still somewhat irksome.
     
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  17. tuswig

    tuswig Bitch Slayer

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    I tend to side more with Rick. Carol was absolutely wrong in killing two sick people who were already in quarantine...also she exposed herself to the virus risking her own health. I think it's interesting that people are quick to point out that Rick acted unilaterally by banishing Carol without consulting others but she acted unilaterally first by making the decision to kill Karen and David, she was already making her own calls by teaching the kids about weapons without consulting the council let alone the parents. The medicine run was really Rick's way of testing Carol, feeling her out to see if she was at all remorseful and her indifference to the wellbeing of the fruit couple showed that she wasn't. I really do believe that if Carol was remorseful Rick wouldnt have exiled her. She was probably never down with the whole Council idea in the first place due to her "I know better" mentality.

    Also, Rick did save her from Tyreese's wrath; he was unhinged and even had the upper hand for a bit in his fight with Rick. I know some of Carol's fans think she's invincible but she's no good in hand to hand combat and Tyreese would have killed her with his bare complicatedy

    ...and yes, the Rick/Carol reunion scene in 5.01 was lovely but they still have a complicated relationship, there's still some underlying tension there in my opinion.
     
    #17 tuswig, Apr 26, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2016
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  18. richonneromance

    richonneromance Caressing Eugene's Mullet

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    I voted neither but I side with Carol more because despite the moral gray area, she did NOT deserve to be left alone in the wild, which is essentially a death sentence and Rick would NOT do this to one of his own. This is why I've always maintained this storyline should've gone to Merle, because Rick banishing him without telling Daryl makes PERFECT sense.

    Yes, this storyline was the first realisation that Gimple didn't know how to handle bigger plotlines or how to naturally create drama. The whole thing was so heavy-handed and poorly constructed, even if I was happy to see Carol with a primary plotline. It sucks because I think with Beth and Carol, the writers were trying to not leave the women out of everything and promote their importance but it seems they just didn't have the skill to execute it properly, so it makes me think they should just stick to writing characters they're good at lol.
     
  19. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I never replied to this, but this is almost exactly how I feel about this arc. While I think it led to ~interesting~ things happening (namely Carol being isolated from the group, encountering Tyreese, having to settle that conflict, the events of "The Grove" in general, Carol saving the group); it did smack of manipulation.

    While I understood Carol's motivation for killing Karen and David, it was stupid. Extremely stupid. She's not a doctor, she has no knowledge of communicable disease. It seemed dumb to me for her to expose herself (a healthy person) to the virus in a botched attempt to end it by killing them. Choking on their own blood or not, they were sequestered. It was cruel no one was checking on them regularly (that we know of), but jeez. Then to drag their infected bodies outside? And callously just burn them without telling anyone? It was just... weird. It still unsettles me.

    I don't think Carol was acting "cold" about it at all; it obviously took a toll; but for the life of me I don't -- and will never -- understand why she did it behind the group's back. If she thought they would say "no", there would probably be a reason behind it. Hershel had more knowledge and experience with this kind of thing, so she should've at least consulted him in private. Heck, even Dr. S must've had some insight into what was happening.

    Rick banishing Carol made sense to me because, by all accounts, Carol didn't feel bad/guilty about it. She never promised she wouldn't do it again. And Rick had two kids at the prison. In his mind, he was probably thinking, "Well, if Carl or Judith gets sick, will Carol kill them too?" Which isn't an outlandish thought for a protective parent to think -- especially when Carol was acting indifferent to the whole ordeal (in my opinion she was putting up a front).

    But then it seemed incredibly cruel of Rick to do such a thing -- to cast her out into the wild to die. While I got his reasoning, which amounted to "Carol is unpredictable" and also the "Tyreese is super pissed" factors, I think if he had spent a bit more time thinking, he could've come up with a better solution than: "Banish Carol." It was very extreme -- even for Rick. Truly despicable to do that to a woman in his group.

    Even so... I had issues with Rick saying he would kill Karen and David in "East". It smacked of Gimple just further patting Carol on the back -- of making Rick look like he was the "bad guy". Yeah, I get it, Rick shouldn't have banished Carol. Carol was killing Karen and David "for her family". Love makes you do extreme things. Yadda yadda, blah, blah. IT WAS STILL A DUMB THING TO DO.

    Rick could've admitted he wouldn't banish Carol now for it, and left it at that. He didn't need to go and say, "I'd thank her" or "Hell I'd do it too" because killing Karen and David was dumb as fuuuuuuck.

    I thought they covered the topic well-enough in "Strangers" when Rick apologized and expressed revulsion for banishing Carol while also still admitting he wasn't sure what she did was right.

    Instead now it's canon that it was "okay"/"the right thing" to kill Karen and David when it wasn't at all. Urgh.

    In sum: both of them were wrong -- and both of them were right.
     
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  20. zahira

    zahira Ricktator
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    Rick was right . she should have thinking without act like that . They are a group , a family . She betrayed the group with that behaviour. Even if it was for the safety of the group :carol:
     
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