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Poll THE BANISHMENT: Who did you side with?

Discussion in 'Season 4' started by Doctor Grimes, Mar 21, 2016.

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Who did you side with?

  1. Rick: He was right to excommunicate her because she never promised she wouldn't kill again

    46 vote(s)
    59.0%
  2. Carol: She was right because she was just trying her hardest to stop the infection

    2 vote(s)
    2.6%
  3. Neither of them: Rick shouldn't have banished her, but Carol shouldn't have killed either

    17 vote(s)
    21.8%
  4. Both of them: They both had their reasons for what they did, and both were right in their own ways

    13 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. tuswig

    tuswig Bitch Slayer
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    THIS. Rick telling Morgan that he would now thank Carol for killing Karen and David and that he would have done the same is probably the grossest offense in the ongoing character assassination of Rick Grimes. He already made his peace with Carol, telling her that he didn't approve of her actions but he now understood , that was good enough. He could have told Morgan the same thing. Killing innocent, sick people in their sleep, more specifically sick people in your very own group, that's NOT Rick. I wonder if he would have said that in front of Michonne, because she probably would've been appalled.

    Perhaps this was the writers way of showing that Rick is still unraveling mentally and is about to hit rock bottom (like Carol) but other than that I cannot excuse his moral backtracking.
     
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  2. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I completely agree. The fact Rick was saying it now when Carol would be appalled by her own actions (given her current crisis) was just icing on the irony cake.

    I really wish Michonne had overheard Rick say that; she would need to have another rock handy to crack on his head.
     
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  3. Silas

    Silas Beloved Side Piece
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    I just noticed this thread existed so excuse me while I write a novel cuz damn man, I've got a lot of opinions on this situation.

    1. It was dumb as hell. Carol isn't a stupid woman and anyone with a brain knows that by the time two people are showing symptoms of an illness and one has already died, there will be more to follow that aren't quite symptomatic yet. Was she planning on killing them all? Would she have killed Glenn? Doubtful. You mean to tell me Carol, who I think would be rather sensitive about the topic of death after Sophia, would leave their bodies out in a courtyard? I don't know, it was just contrived and dumb. I think I already said that. They needed something to start Carol on this arc and came up with this for some reason.

    2. Despite how dumb it was, it happened and I actually think Rick was doing exactly what Carol had been telling him to do for the entire episode. Season Four had Rick on the arc of finding his feet again, reclaiming his gun, learning that sometimes he can't "just be a farmer". The entire episode Carol was telling Rick sometimes he has to step up, sometimes you have to do what you have to do, you can't just a farmer. She showed him in her actions and her words. I believe at some point she told him that someone had to do something. So by the end what does Rick do? He steps up and takes control of the situation, just like Carol did with K&D and just like she'd been telling him to do the entire time they were out together.

    3. Which brings me to my next point. They were both kinda mirroring each other in their actions. They both took it upon themselves to take care of a situation. Carol didn't ask The Council's approval, neither did Rick. Carol didn't let K&D say goodbye to their family, Rick didn't let Carol say goodbye to hers. They were both trying to do the right thing, their intentions were for the "greater good" even if it didn't seem that way.

    4. And yes. I really think both of their intentions were in the right place. Carol was trying to save lives by killing, Rick was doing the same by banishing Carol. And this is the part where I turn into an asshole because if I had to pick a side (and more to the point of the post), I'd pick Rick's. Because no matter which way you slice it and dice it, killing people is worse than banishing people. Sorry. Would people have felt the same way if Carol had killed Glenn when he was sick? Hell no. Which is another reason I always thought the writers were dumb because the audience had no feelings for the people she killed, making it not seem as bad. I truly believe that. We were numb to the fact that Carol had just murdered two innocent people. I always thought it was a bit silly of Rick to banish her when the prison was so weak and a lot of key players were on a run and MIA, with people dropping like flies left and right, but I get where he was coming from. What if his kids had gotten sick? Because there was one key difference between the two - Carol seemed "Indifferent" towards her crimes (I think that was OOC as hell but hey, that's how it felt) and Rick didn't. He cried on the way home. But take a woman who seems indifferent towards murder and would you trust her on the off chance one of your kids got sick? The answer is no.

    Any damn way, I wrote a novel. At the end of the day I do think they both meant well but ultimately made the wrong call. But my question for people who have hated Rick forever for this is this...if you can see that Carol's intentions were good, even her actions were harsh, why can't you extend that same courtesy to Rick?
     
  4. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I've always wondered this as well and asked the same thing. A lot of Carol fans loathed Rick for banishing Carol. I get the anger because, I mean, Rick practically sentenced their fave to death, but it's the refusal to see things from his point of view that boggles me.

    As you said, they were mirroring each others actions; and I also saw Carol's prodding in the episode ("You can't just be a farmer") as a method of getting Rick to act. She may not have liked the action he chose to do (banish her), but she did snap him out of his lull.

    I do think they should've replaced Karen and David with two more well-known characters. They could've kept Axel, Oscar, or T-Dog around for this. Or maybe taken out Beth that way. (Maggie and Hershel would've had to deal with the blow of that). I couldn't see them killing a main character that way (since the audience would never forgive Carol), but someone that the audience at least knew a bit would've made the situation all the more dramatic -- and probably would've better illustrated why Rick was feeling the way he was feeling.
     
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  5. Silas

    Silas Beloved Side Piece
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    Exactly. And Axel would've been a great pick too, because Carol had her own little friendship with him. I think by picking two "randoms" Rick's argument falls flat with the audience when it really shouldn't. Taking it upon yourself to kill two people is kind of a big deal but instead the audience seemed unphased. They shouldn't have. It should've rattled the viewers as much as it rattled Rick.
     
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  6. LaToya78

    LaToya78 Nestled in Rick's Beard

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    Exactly i didn't understand why the writers did this it made no sense. I don't believe the way Rick was back then or the way he is now would do something like that.
     
    #26 LaToya78, Apr 28, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2016
  7. QueenTee

    QueenTee Ricktator

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    At first I voted for neither of them, but after thinking about it..Rick was right. This happened at a time Rick and the group were trying to establish some type of order and structure, and Carol decided to go against that by killing two people within the community (kinda big deal). There had to be some type of repercussion for that, whether or not it was banishment I think is up for debate.
    I remember CH mentioning this on TTD and he made the comment that "Carol knows how to get things done" [​IMG]
    Yeah, but does she think sh** through, is all I'm saying
     
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  8. tuswig

    tuswig Bitch Slayer
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    "get things done" as in killing innocent sick people??? Yeah ok CH. HERSHEL got things done by risking his life to care for the sick. MICHONNE, DARYL, BOB and TYREESE got things done by risking their lives to go out and find the medicine needed to help save lives. Carol took the easy road. Carol is impulsive and in some ways that makes her dangerous to others and to the group. Like it was mentioned earlier, characters that we cared about should have replaced Karen and David, then I think people would have understood Rick's pov. At that moment Rick was thinking, "Damn, what if Carl or Judith was sick. Could I trust you NOT to kill them???"
     
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  9. ReeciePiecey

    ReeciePiecey Nestled in Rick's Beard
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    lol I've been listening to some old podcast and I'm at this part of the story again. I side with Rick even more so now than before despite his 180 in the latest episodes. I forgot a lot of Carol's actions in season 4.

    Season 4 Carol was cold as ice. She was training the kids to kill. Lied to their parents, lied to the council. She asked Carl a 12 year old kid to lie to his dad for him. She berated Lizzie when she couldn't kill her own dad after he was bitten, she called her weak and told her she had to toughen up. Killed Karen and David and didn't admit it despite Tyreese fighting with Rick and Daryl. When Rick confronts her about it she has no remorse. She sent the hippy's in the house to scavenge despite the girl having a handicap and knowing full well they didnt know how to handle the walkers.

    That was particularly upsetting to me considering Carol spent 3.5 seasons depending on everyone else to keep her safe and was still struggling to handle walkers herself in season 4 (as evidenced by her struggling with the walkers when trying to fix the water). But now she says everyone has to carry there weight. She even throws Shane and Sophia in Rick's face to shame him into giving her a pass when Sophia was her primary responsibility.

    The only thing I could say is that Rick could have bought it to the Council but lets be real. They would have done the same thing and then went out to Rick in the field and asked him to be the one to do because they always expect him to do the dirty work. Which is basically what Maggie says to him when he returns without Carol.
     
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  10. ReeciePiecey

    ReeciePiecey Nestled in Rick's Beard
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    I totally agree! I think part of that whole story line was supposed to be the juxtaposition of Carol's way of handling the sick people and Hershel's but all we could focus on was Rick vs Carol. But we saw Hershel putting his life on the line to save these people that he barely knows. Not only that but he works to keep their spirits up and tries to give them dignity even in death by taking them out privately and not allowing them to turn. He knows he cant save everyone but works to do what he can for everyone. He was selfless and saved so many of the people in the prison.

    While Carol killed two people and it didn't do anything beneficial for the group. All it did was destroy relationships and torture viewers.
     
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  11. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I don't necessarily think the Council would've voted wholesale to banish Carol. I think it would've been a split vote. It's a hard call, but maybe that would be an interesting topic as well: What if Rick had talked to the Council? What would've realistically happened? I guess the fallout wouldn't have mattered since the Governor attacked very shortly afterward, but... it's speculation.

    I don't think Carol was cold in season 4. I think she was being hyper pragmatic as a survival mechanism. As a result of probably feeling like a burden on others (she even called herself a burden in season 2), she over-corrected by pushing others to toughen up. She lost her daughter because Sophia didn't know how to take care of herself. Because she, Carol, couldn't step up.

    I didn't particularly agree with a lot of Carol's methods, but I understood why she did them. It came from a place of concern and a desire to protect. I don't see any malice behind it. Her pushing Lizzie was just her trying to make sure Lizzie stayed strong. That she could be a survivor. Carol training the kids how to use weapons was smart as heck. I fully was behind her 100% on that.

    However, I didn't care for her perspective on Sam and Ana, but again, I understood it. They're strangers. They have to be strong in the world. Etc. But, yeah, it did smack a bit of hypocrisy. Also throwing Shane in Rick's face as a counter to the argument he never killed anyone in their group was dumb as hell. If Karen and David had been in a clearing reading to blow Carol's brains out, sure. I could get the comparison. But no. Karen and David were sick and immobile in a quarantine. Shane was a hyper-active ball of rage ready to kill Rick at a moment's notice.
     
  12. ReeciePiecey

    ReeciePiecey Nestled in Rick's Beard
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    I don't know about the split vote @Doctor Grimes, If you think about who was on the council, You have Sasha, Hershel, Glenn, Daryl and Michonne. Sasha and Glenn were sick themselves. I think they could understand that Carol thought she was helping but it begs the question that it could have been either of them she killed to save the group. Also with all Hershel did to save people I don't think he could have supported Carol's actions either. So that leaves Daryl and Michonne and I cant see Michonne supporting it and even if she did they would be outvoted anyway.

    Also we always disregard Tyreese's feelings for Karen. You could say that he felt about her like Rick feels about Michonne now. What would he really have done if he knew who killed her and why?

    Also this wasn't a time in their lives where they were acting ruthlessly yet. I guess you could say that Carol just got their first but everyone else was trying to go back to how things were. They had rebuilt a society, they were seeking people out to be a part of their community. How would the rest of the community have felt about Carol's actions? Was she still going to be able to cook them food and read story's to their children. I think every sick person who survived would have been giving her major side-eye lol!

    But there was no reason why Carol couldn't move into another wing of the prison lol. There in a prison for goodness sake they could have given her a sentence. So yeah when it really comes down to it, It was the writers not thinking things through. Good thing the Governor showed up as deus ex machina to keep them from exploring all that.
     
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  13. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Michonne wasn't on the Council. The Council was Hershel, Glenn, Sasha, Daryl, and Carol.

    Sasha and Glenn were sick. Sasha would've voted to exile Carol (siding with her brother). Glenn probably would've said keep her (although Maggie was on team exile, so maybe she could've convinced him otherwise). Daryl would've been team keep her for sure. And Hershel seemed to be disappointed/upset when Rick told him what he did.

    So, really, only Sasha and maybe Glenn (the two sick people) would've voted to exile her. Hershel and Daryl would've been team forgiveness.
     
  14. Lyra_Nation

    Lyra_Nation Young, scrappy, and hungry
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    Even if they made the vote before Sasha and Glenn started showing symptoms, Karen was Tyreese (Sasha's brother's) girlfriend. She would have voted to banish Carol. Glenn might have asked if there was anything else they could do besides banishment, but he would've been on the "not okay" side of what Carol did so if the punishment was banishment, he would've ended up voting for that. And Hershel, I believe, would have been the same.

    I don't think Daryl would've voted to banish her just because they're so close and not because he thought it was ethically okay what she did. And I don't think Michonne was on the council.

    So it just would've been Daryl voting against. She would have ended up getting banished anyway...
     
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  15. Silas

    Silas Beloved Side Piece
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    I actually think Carol's actions speak volumes about how much she cares. She does all that crazy shit because she's so afraid of losing someone else, desperate, and deeply wants to protect everyone. I do think she can be a bit head strong but I think if you really look at why, you realize she's quite the opposite of cold. Which is why I try to look at their intentions instead of their actions. Carol intended to protect the group, protect Lizzie, etc. This is a woman that's grasping straws and lashing out at anything that's threat in a desperate attempt to protect her family, it's actually the exact opposite of cold.

    I'm not sure what the council would've done with Carol. It might've been better for Carol's sanity in the long run if she'd been confronted with that. I think she'd have to face her demons and the truth - that she killed K&D purely out of fear of losing more people. Instead now we have her pushing away people she loves so she doesn't have to kill anymore. If they'd nipped that in bud early on we might have a happier and healthier Carol now.

    Now I'm imagining some big group therapy session at the prison while Carol talks out her fears of people dying.
     
  16. tuswig

    tuswig Bitch Slayer
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    Yasssssssss! It wasn't until near the end of season 3 when Carol really came into her own before then everyone else was pretty much looking out for her...saving her. Then, as if over night, she suddenly knew better than everyone else and kind of became a bitch about it. Comparing killing David and Karen to killing Shane was like comparing apples to oranges, and it still blows my mind that some people thought that was a valid argument to make and please don't get me started on Sophia (the constant praising of Daryl but no gratitude towards Rick pisses me off) And the way Carol brushed off the fruit couple, really putting them right in harm's way was appalling, even Rick was put off.
     
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  17. ReeciePiecey

    ReeciePiecey Nestled in Rick's Beard
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    @Doctor Grimes we'll have to agree to disagree and its unfortunate that the writers took the easy way out so now we are just left to speculate about it.
     
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  18. Tori

    Tori The New Mrs. Grimes

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    I agreed with Rick. I thought he made the best decision he could at the time. I spent the rest of that season and the hiatus defending Rick against every nasty thing that was said about him. Then the writers turn around and have him agree with every single thing Carol did. I'm still pissed that they did that. I feel like it was a waste of time defending him if that's what they were going to have him do in the end.
     
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  19. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    I think the writers were trying to show Rick's current frame of mind. In a scale from Morgan to Carol pre 6B, Rick leans heavily towards Carol currently, but by the end of AOW when
    decides to spare Negan, assuming he does
    he'll work his way back to the middle and find that happy balance between Morgan and Carol's philosophy.

    It sucks because not only did the writers take out the ambiguity of who was in the right, I don't think Rick will ever go back to amend his statement to Morgan even if he does feel differently after.
     
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  20. lovingdead

    lovingdead The New Mrs. Grimes

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    Rick was right, but I think maybe he should have entertained an option of her essentially staying in solitary confinement within the prison for a long sentence. It's a tough call because who knows if she would have learned her lesson.I still feel like she didn't really learn her lesson as far as meddling. It just brings me back to her scheming in ASZ. Pushing a shady agenda (I'm not letting Rick or Daryl of the hook), telling Rick to kill Pete, terrorizing a child, etc. The prison murders, to me, were the beginning of shady Carol. She has had heroic moments, but I truly think her making this call on her own was the beginning of her bad side.