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Poll TWD RE-WATCH CLUB: WILDFIRE 1X5

Discussion in 'Season 1' started by SevenStars, Jun 22, 2016.

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What grade would you give 1x4

This poll will close on Dec 22, 2018 at 7:43 PM.
  1. A

    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  2. B

    4 vote(s)
    57.1%
  3. C

    1 vote(s)
    14.3%
  4. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Hi everyone and welcome to any new member who are joining us,

    We are almost done with the first season, and it has been really fun and interesting re-watching it and see what I missed the first time. I hope it has been fun for you guys as well.

    I'm going to keep posting the plan for this club in every post, going forward for at least the first few weeks so that those who are joining us for the first time can get the info. For those who read it in the last post, just skip it and go to the questions.

    1. We watch two episodes per week. Wednesday and Sunday. We spend the days in between each episode discussing the episodes. So we have would have a 3 days to watch and discuss each episodes.

    2. I will try to post at least 3 questions in each new episode post but that doesn't mean that's the only thing we can discuss. If people have other comments, or questions base on the episode, they are free to post them and add them to the discussions. The questions that I be posting is just like something to break the ice, nothing more. So people don't have to feel obligated to only talk or respond to these questions. This discussion is free for all type of style as long we try to stay within the context of the episodes.

    3. The post for each episodes will be posted in the seasons thread with a poll for each episodes.


    Now onto the questions for the episode itself and remember try to response to these questions before you read others responses.


    1. What do you think set Shane off that caused him to target Rick suddenly ?

    2. Would you have made the decision the Morales did ?

    3. What do you think about how the writers wrote the women in this episodes ? (I will probably ask this question or a variation of it in every post because I noticed in the last discussion that it was hot topic when it comes to comparing the writers).

    4.What did you noticed was different from the last time you view this episodes ? ( This is a question I will asked in every episode post)

    Like always, I will be posting my comments and answers later.

    @Sasha's Living Room
    @lovingdead @Katbird @Flower1petals @Caribbeanqueen11 @MrsG @chaundee @Gooey Goobert @Canuckgirl @Jetamors @TexasZAgal
     
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  2. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    Convenient, I just got home :D Some notes I made while I was watching it:

    It's kind of interesting seeing the group dealing with the bitten for the first time. It seems like later on there's a basic routine to it: don't kill the person while they're still living, but stay with them, and keep them from coming back after they die. Which is how things end up with Amy, but not at all with Jim. (And Jim has to be one of the only cases of someone being relatively okay with becoming a walker. Later on, everyone develops a real horror at the idea.)

    Looking at Rick/Lori: their communication is just as bad as ever :( She makes a lot of assumptions about what he'll do and how he'll act, which I'm not sure are always true, and then I can't really tell what he wants from her; he discusses things with her, but doesn't really seem to take her opinions into account. (Does he ever change his mind based on something she says? I don't think he has yet.) I like each of them individually, but together they're terrible.

    I mainly remembered the burn walkers/bury our dead thing from S2, so I didn't realize that Glenn was the first one to suggest doing it. People call him the heart of the group sometimes, and I think this is the first time we see him acting that way.

    I don't know that I'd call it sudden, but I think from his POV, Rick is taking everything away from him. He previously saw himself as Lori's lover, Carl's father figure, and the group's leader (I'm guessing), but now that Rick is around, he's losing all of those things. I think the immediate precipitating event was Lori publicly backing Rick over him, but with Shane's temperament I think he was always going to deal with a situation like this very poorly.

    (Though about the group leader thing--what on earth was the Shane-Merle dynamic like? I'm so curious.)

    I'm not sure, but I do think it was a reasonable decision. The CDC plan is okay if you have nowhere else to go, but they did have somewhere else to go.
     
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  3. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    It happened right after Rick said that Shane would understand his desire to try the CDC trip if Carl and Lori were his family. Knowing what I know now, I'm pretty sure that choice of wording wasn't an accident. It was Rick slipping up at trying to pretend he didn't know what happened between Shane and Lori.

    Just before this incident, outside the trailer, Shane was trying to get Lori to convince Rick to give up on the CDC and go to a military base at Ft. Benning. But Lori-- who had been disagreeing with Rick on the same matter just moments before-- fell back on the "wife's duty" thing and said Rick should "go with his gut." Not because he'd convinced her but as a passive-aggressive way to get Shane to back off! She makes a comment to Shane about him breaking the habit of bringing her marriage into things and Shane makes a comment about it being another habit he doesn't want to break. Rick appears at that point and asks "What habit?" (I have no doubt Rick was perfectly aware of exactly what Shane meant in that moment, if not earlier.)

    I think that whole interaction left a bad taste in everyone's mouth (and not just those on screen). Shane and Rick are both on edge in the woods because of it.

    I honestly couldn't tell you. Since it wasn't that far as compared to Fort Benning, I'd have thought they'd try for the CDC first and then leave afterward. But maybe the most important thing to them was to see their family and they didn't want to risk it?

    Lori was doing SO WELL in this episode, being supportive to people and honest about her feelings, and then that whole thing I mentioned above happens outside the trailer and... yeah... :omg:

    I think I noticed this a couple of eps ago but forgot to ask: Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that Andrea and Lori are still wearing earrings after the ZA started? Andrea's look like they might be sentimental (gold) but even still...

    I literally shouted at my screen at Dale for being a hypocrite when he advocates for Jim to make his own decision about what he wants to happen to him.

    I still think Andrea's necklace gift came too late (should've been last ep). Walker Amy was too conveniently slow and weak-- especially compared to the putrefied walkers in the city, whose visible decay didn't hinder them from running and climbing a tank and a fence. (No wonder Andrea thought she had so much time to chat with Milton in the S3 finale!)

    Rick's S2 line about having figured it out "pretty early" what happened between Shane and Lori was echoing through my mind as I watched this. I have been closely watching Lori's behaviour as we go as well, and this is probably her worst moment so far. It's bad enough she acts like Shane tricked her into thinking her husband was dead, and she needlessly tells him to stay away from Carl, but to me those pale in comparison to her failure to give honest input on the potentially life-or-death decision between the CDC and Ft. Benning. Instead of going with whatever she honestly feels is best, and instead of truly being convinced by any argument Rick gives against her first choice, she lets her "final decision" be based on a desperate play to put distance between her and Shane? Way to put your son's welfare first! (To be fair, both directions are question marks, but still...)
     
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  4. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Wow, I love that ending scene/shot. I like the emotion of the scene, it just grips my heart. I always clutch my chest when he is screaming, "you're killing us, you're killing us!". It is so powerful. Shane holding him around the waist, dragging him back...he does love Rick. And, the way they filmed it, that light bursting out to fall on every one of them, awesome shot. That is one of the "wow!" scenes for me.

    1. The Shane question: I think hearing Rick make that statement about Lori and Carl not being his family really hurt Shane. Rick was quick to explain and admit it was a debt that couldn't be repaid, but it was a hurtful thing for him to say to Shane. I think the general idea of Shane having feelings for Lori before the turn, and Lori for Shane, possibly, is probably right...the only reason Shane didn't act on those feelings was his relationship with Rick. He did not want to lose his relationship with a man he thought of as his brother. When Rick said that to Shane, it was like a gut punch to him. I could hear it in his response, well done, Jon Berenthal ( he is so fine*sigh*). Then, he draws on him, and he did lower his gun, before Dale made his presence known, so that is something. I just always want the two of them to be BFF's. I can understand Shane's perspective about Rick being back, but Rick doesn't know he's been laying up with Lori...so Rick ain't tiptoeing around Shane's feelings, oh, well, too bad. It was an impossible situation, unless somebody lke me was there and just bust out all in the public: "I thought he was your husband. That ain't your husband? Oh, my bad."

    2. I would have tried it I think. I would definitely want to go to my folk. I would be really worried about fuel, making it there without having to resort to walking with children. And, Mrs. Morales gonna have to put on some pants and boots. No skirts in the ZA and you know you need to run...boots and pants, ma'am Heading out on their own was risky, but I think he thought there was some tension brewing with that Shane/Rick leader question. You can bet he thought: "Some s**t 'bout to pop off with this mess.". So, they made the call to exit the whole thing. I do wonder if they made it. I always say we are going to see them again.

    3. I see the same issue with the women still actve in this episode...and only Lori has a voice. I don't like that. She speaks up, which is good, but the writers give us very traditional gender-specific attitudes and behaviors. Counter point, though, it was good to show Carol and Andrea at least being active by ending, preventing in Ed's case, their loved one from turning. We know what heavy burden/responsibility that is for the one left behind. It is heartbreaking.

    4. I noticed with this rewatch, that Jim knew Rick felt responsible for the people he considered under his protection. He told him it was his (Jim's) choice, not his (Rick's) failure. I noticed that Daryl was really angry about Merle, that was a harsh thing to say about them reaping what they sowed, having it coming. A lot of mention of God in this episode, the spiritual realm. I know that the CDC was over run/deserted, but somebody put all those people down, none of the bodies were reanimating when the group got close, just a very few...I wonder about that.
     
    #4 Katbird, Jun 22, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2016
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  5. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    This episode was slow, but the characters' interactions was interesting, especially Shane/Lori/Rick.

    Some of us talked about how bad ass Rick was out there dealing with the Vatos and taking care of business and how it kind of surprised us because we had this image of Rick not being like that in the early episodes/seasons. Some of us, like me, blamed his baby face for that. But watching this episode, I realized it may not have been only his baby face but also because it seems like we were dealing with two Rick. The Rick who is confident about his decisions, who take charge and keep it move, even when he is not sure of where he is going.Then there is the Rick we see in scenes with Lori or Shane,where he seems to be looking for their approval. often In scenes with Lori, he seems to be begging/pleading for her approval, for her to stand with him, for her to just tell him that he could be right. As we are going to see in later episodes/seasons, a lot of Rick’s scenes are with either Lori or Shane, that might be why my image of early Rick doesn’t compare with the Rick I’m paying attention to in this re-watch. Because of the fact that the image that was most on my screen was the Rick that is with Lori/Shane, not the Rick that took charge after Glenn got him out off the tank and he just started telling the group what they needed to do after he gathered information from them. Not the Rick that totally took control of the whole Merle and Vatos situation. That Rick didn’t look at anyone for approval. He asked Glenn/Daryl opinions/suggestions, but at the end of the day, he just took care of business. That Rick rarely show himself during his dealings with Lori/Shane. I understand why it was like that but I hate it now that I noticed it.

    Lori might not have been the wife Rick needed in this situation in private but I like how she tried to be the best wife to him in public, by backing him up, even when she doesn’t agree with him and feels the same way the group those.

    I hated the way Shane told the group that Rick’s idea was the best one but the in scene after the Morales (Who I wished we could get an update on ) decided to go their separate way, he made a comment to Rick about how he didn’t think their odds are better going to the CDC. I don’t see why he needed to make that comment to Rick after he agreed that it was their best chance of survival.


    1. What do you think set Shane off that caused him to target Rick suddenly ?

    I think what set Shane off was two things, his talk with Lori and Rick making the the off-hand comment that Shane would think differently about going to CDC if Lori and Carl was his family.

    I think seeing how quickly Lori was back to play the good wife to Rick, when hours ago, him and Lori were having sex, acting like romantic lovers, not just someone who is there to pass the time with. Just like me and some others here have mentioned that the way Lori and Shane acted towards each other in those scenes before Rick found them, seems more than just two people looking for a way to distract themselves from their grieve/pain/confusion/stress over everything that was happen. That they seems a little too familiar and intimate with each other for that. They kind off acted like they were actually in love with each other in some scenes. That confused some of us and made us give their relationship a side.eye. I think the same thing is happening to Shane. He can't wrapped his head around the Lori that seems to be totally into him hours ago, with the Lori that is acting like he is nothing to her except her husband's friend. That reaction from Lori, answered the question I had during the our discussions about whether Lori/Shane were close friends as well before the Z.A, for the reason for them seeming to be so close, intimate and familiar with each other in a way that seems to go beyond just them having comfort sex. Her reaction tells me they weren't.

    I think Lori could have handled the Shane situation better but I get and understand why she shut-down on him like that and tried to shut him out. But Shane doesn't , because the feelings that he ha for Lori before Rick came are still there, while Lori is acting like she never had any real romantic feelings for him. That made Shane see Rick as the obstacle in his way when it comes to Lori. But that still didn't make him snapped.

    When Rick made the family comment, Shane already feeling some type of way about Rick because of how Lori was treating him, interpreted Rick's comment as Rick not being grateful enough for everything he had done for Rick and Rick's family. That comment to Shane was like Rick shutting him out like Lori did.

    Shane felt like the people he loved the most and the people he didn't everything in his power to protect and save, ( pushing that hospital bed in-front of Rick's hospital room to make sure no Walkers or anyone not really invested in going in that room would get to Rick, taking Lori and Carl as his own, being willing to do anything to protect them) were shutting him down and out. It was like they were throwing him away because they no longer needed him, since they were back to being a family.

    I think these two things together is what caused Shane to snapped enough to consider killing Rick.

    2. Would you have made the decision the Morales did ?
    I wouldn't have. I would have stayed with Rick's group because there is safety in number. The night they just had where if there hadn't been enough people and enough weapons, all of them could have gotten bitten and die, is a great example of why there is safety in number, especially with two children who haven't learned yet how to protect themselves.

    3. What do you think about how the writers wrote the women in this episodes ? (I will probably ask this question or a variation of it in every post because I noticed in the last discussion that it was hot topic when it comes to comparing the writers).

    At least this time I didn't think the writers were going out of there way to draw a line between the women and the men. It seems like everyone was just shaking-up and trying to figure out what to do next. So in that sense, it improved an inch, :lol:.


    4.What did you noticed was different from the last time you view this episodes ? ( This is a question I will asked in every episode post)

    Last time I viewed this episode, I didn't noticed Daryl resentments towards the group for what happened to Merle. This resulted in Daryl showing so little compassion for Andrea losing her sister and it kind of bothered me considering how he acted just a day ago when he thought he lost his brother. I would think he would be the more understanding one in the group. But I think it’s because he still blamed the group for what happened to his brother, including Andrea who was there when it happened. While I get it, it didn't bothered me before, I didn't even really noticed Daryl until later in the series, so that might that be why my noticing it now bothers me.

    It was interesting to see in the scene where the group is talking about how to deal with Andrea not being able to let go of her sister, Rick told everyone that he would tell Andrea how it is. Rick acted like he was already the leader of the group and the interesting thing is that not only did everyone just went along with it but so did Shane.
     
    #5 SevenStars, Jun 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2016
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  6. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I'm so happy to hear that I'm not the only "obsessive" one who takes note while re-watching these episodes. We really, truly are in a club together, :lol::lol::lol:.

    Yeah, it was interesting to see them deal for the first time with one of their own being turn into a walker. I think their method now, to just stay with their loves one until the end is better and is a result of them learning more about the disease. Before, they all acted like Jim had a contagious disease that can be pass to them if they spent too much time with him or something. Especially when they first found out that he was bitten, they didn't even want to touch him. So learning more about the disease really helped shaped how they deal with someone who gets bitten. I think their fear of being turn into a walker also comes about because of their time around the walker, they have seen exactly what it means to be walker and it hunts them.

    Yeah, Rick/Lori were a mess. I think they are both good people but they weren't good together not before the Z.A and especially not after.

    I kind off disagree with you about Shane. I think when Rick first got to the group, Shane was happy to see his bff and sad because that meant he would lose what he had with Lori and Carl. But because of his love for Rick, and he knows how much Rick loved his family, he was willing to step aside and kind just be part of their family. But Lori shutting him out, acting like he was never anything to her, like he was the enemy. Rick leaving behind his family to go save Merle, and Rick making that off-hand family comment kind off made him rethink his initial plan to try to be the better man. Instead of including him in their family dynamic, he felt like they are closing rank and shutting him out after he acted and treated them like his family.

    I too wondered what the dynamic was between Shane and Merle. I also wondered why Merle went on the run without Daryl. I would think that Merle and Daryl would have sticks together, so that no matter where one go, the other goes, especially Daryl. Daryl would have definitely follow his big brother, because they wouldn't trust anyone in the group enough to keep each other safe. So they would want to be together to protect each other's back. It always felt kind off to me that Merle would have left Daryl behind to go on the run or that Daryl would have trusted the group enough to let them be the one guarding his brother's back.
     
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  7. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I never thought about Merle and Shane and how things would work with the two of them being at the quarry together. I would be waiting every minute for some type of conflict to surface. What a good point. What do you think would be going on with those two? I am thinking Merle would be trying to get under Shane's skin, because he (Shane) is a police officer and Merle does not like the po-lice. Merle bucks authority, the hallucination he was having on the roof was about hitting a superior while he was in the army. Merle and Shane would butt heads for sure. But, I'm sure Shane wasn't intimidated by Merle, not in the least. He would be making sure Merle knew he wasn't going to let him punk him. Police officers deal with all kinds of antisocial types. Shane would be very familiar with men like Merle.
     
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  8. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Interesting point about Rick not accidentally making that comment. That it was kind of passive-aggressive comment he made base on his suspicious. I honestly didn't see it like that, I took Rick's comment at face value. But this is a really good point.

    I totally agree with this. But at the same time, after seeing how Rick was kind of begging/pleading with Lori to have faith in his decision making, I appreciated Lori backing him up in public instead of giving voice to the doubts she had about the decision Rick wanted to make. As a viewer who felt badly for Rick during his scenes with Lori, I appreciated her backing him up in public. But I agree with you, it was not a great move.

    After seeing how many lost their lives in the walker attack I can see why they would prefer to go see their families, instead of going to CDC. They don't want to die with this group, when there is a chance they could be with their families/ die among family.

    I don't think it's weird because if they had those earrings on when all of this happened and they realized they had to run for safety, I don't think they would take the time to take them off. There would be no reason for them to take them off.

    Save it for the next episode, where it is shine bright and clear how much of a hypocrite Dale is being, :dalewtf:.



    :lol::lol:

    Great points, and also I think Lori doing this made things worst in their marriage because Rick knows she doesn't agree with him and have no confidence his decision. Therefore, he knows that she is just playing the good dutiful wife, not because she has trust or believe in his decision. And if you are right that he suspected something happened between Lori and Shane during that time, it means that he also realized that Lori used him to hurt Shane. That Lori didn't back him up because of any faith she had in him, but simply because she wanted get back at her recent ex.lover. That would truly hurt Rick, and might be the reason he said what he did to Shane in the wood. He wanted to put his family back together, so he couldn't take out his pain on Lori but he could take it out on Shane. This makes me see Rick in a whole different light and I'm not sure I'm ready to see him in that light, :gabe::gabe::gabe:.

    With all of this said, I don't think Lori could have won no matter what she said in that scene. Because if she hadn't back-up Rick, it would have still hurt Rick badly, especially if he had his suspicions even back then. The way things were set-up I think Lori was in a lose/lose situation. She would have won as mother but not as wife. At least, not in Rick's eyes with his possible suspicions.
     
    #8 SevenStars, Jun 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2016
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  9. Braskas Nice

    Braskas Nice Hiding in Dale's RV

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    New to the forum and this looks like the thread to be a part of! I need to rush home today and watch Wildfire. Do I still have time to be part of the discussion?
     
  10. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Yes, welcome! :)

    I realize now I said it wasn't an accident, but I guess I meant it was a different kind of accident, lol. I really do think Rick had probably just put 2 and 2 together and yet was trying his level best to look the other way. I remember he said later something along the lines of wanting to strangle Shane when he realized. I suspect this was that moment.

    Believe me, I felt the same way about Rick needing emotional support (especially the first time watching, since now I wonder if he already had misgivings about their marriage from well before the love triangle began and was looking for reassurance on that more than on the plan), but I also know that is *exactly* the kind of lie that creates rifts between people. Before you even bring Shane and her history with him into this, that lie breeds mistrust in Rick and resentment within herself. (The more you speak or act contrary to your own personal beliefs and values, the more bitter you can get.)

    Just like she didn't have to be harsh to Rick when expressing her disagreement, Lori could agree with Shane while also making clear that she doesn't wish to get back with him (if that's even true). Honestly I think Lori wasn't sure what she really wanted and was too afraid to find out so she fell back on the "dutiful wife" act because it seemed the easiest.

    If it were me, the first night I lay down to sleep, I'd be taking the things off. But I've always found even little earrings bothersome after longer than a few hours at a time.

    True that. :shane:

    It was hard for me too at first, but certain events in S2 and S3 convinced me this part of Rick was always there, beneath the surface. (In S5 and early S6, we even that part of him take control over who he was.) Yet somehow I love Rick to death, even though I'd normally dislike a character that does a small fraction of the things he's done-- in a different world, under different circumstances. The moral complexity of this series and its characters fascinates me.

    Yup, and I don't really blame her actually. She gets bashed a lot and I want to make it clear, my reaction is more about the despair I feel while watching her. I totally get that she's confused about what she wants and afraid of what happens if she does the necessary soul-searching in order to find out. Many people can and have gone this seemingly "easier" route, because the alternative is so painful in the immediate short term. But unfortunately the path she chose only ends up hurting everyone way more over a longer period of time. (I say all this because I can sort of relate to her fear of getting to the bottom of what you really want, although in my case I mostly just hurt myself and not other people, the longer I put it off.)
     
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  11. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    The more we discuss/analyze those two scenes the more revealing they become. Rick is obviously a very perceptive man. He knows Lori and Shane well. Him walking up on the tale-end of their conversation...I always wondered if that was the moment he figured it out. (He told them both at the farm he knew pretty quickly what had gone on...not wanting to get ahead). That decision, to go along to get along, so to speak, was pretty telling of the relationship they had before the turn. She is not open with him on any level. Lori kinda goads Rick. "You don't talk enough. I wonder if you really love us at all." What a way to communicate with the man you are married to, that you love. Rick isn't blameless, but, wow, she was not able to tell him what she was feeling, maybe she didn't know...I mean preZA. What do you all think of the feasibility of her just telling Rick about it the first night he was back? Would that have created more problems than it solved? I think that was Lori's worst mistake, even worse than sleeping with Shane...she should have told him, maybe? idk. I think I would have wanted the space to curse Shane the hell out. She couldn't be open with the anger because she was trying to protect her secret...that is almost never good. That would have been a good thing for Lori, I think.

    The statement on their sweep, the family comment. Freudian, maybe. He was getting a whole lot of vibes...he was responding to something he was feeling, but not quite sure about. I continue to think that was an impossible situation. What a big mess to try to negotiate with the freakin'dead walking the Earth!
     
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  12. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    Oh wow, that would have been a total game-changer. I think Lori would have been better off if she'd just told him, but I can see why she didn't; what Lori wanted most was a slightly better version of the status quo where she could just pretend the whole thing had never happened (and also pretend her marriage was better than it was). She didn't actually want to work through it with Rick, or get dumped by Rick, or leave him for Shane, but if she'd told him, those would have been the only options.

    Also, she wasn't the only one involved. Would it have made a difference if Shane was the one who told Rick and not Lori? Or if they both had?
     
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  13. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I like what you say about Lori pretending...she does a lot of that. I feel so bad for her. She gets bashed something awful...I know that the writers wanted to create that sort of audience misgivings about her choices and behavior, but I can't help but feel some empathy for her. (I am so different, lol!). I see what you mean by the limited/negative options/outcomes if it were revealed.. But, we know what kind of guy Rick is...he'd have stuck it out, hung in there with her. ( I see him doing it even with us knowing how things went).
    Your question about Shane telling him...oh my gee! That would have been some kinda drama. I don't think he could have done it, tell him, I mean. His (Shane) relationship with Rick is/was the best thing in Shane's life--preZA. I somehow think the nature of their relationship is what made it so easy for him to step into Rick's place with Rick's family. I'm sure I'll get booed for this, get a resounding thrashing for this opinion, lol, but I think it was more about him and Rick than about him and Lori. And, not really envy or wanting what Rick has/had...more, kinda him wanting to be Rick. I know it sounds cra-cra, lol, but, that's why I don't think he would be able to tell him. He (Shane) was all show and no substance, you know what I mean? And, I think he knew it...I think they both knew it. I'm reading a lot into it (it's a TV show, not a novel, lol)...I get carried away.
     
    #13 Katbird, Jun 25, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
  14. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I understand why Lori didn't tell Rick right away but I think that further damaged their marriage because it causes Rick to not trust her like he needed.

    I think it would have been way worst if Shane had been the one to tell him.
     
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  15. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    I'm glad you say this; I was thinking the exact same thing, on both counts. Lori's obviously got more to be guilty about but they both needed to communicate better .

    Pre-ZA? This is just a wild guess on my part but I think on some level, Lori knew she was having problems being with Rick, even back then. She was definitely acting resentful already, considering Rick's story from the 1x1 flashback about her criticizing him for not speaking, but also getting on his case no matter what he'd say. When she questioned Rick's love for her and their son, it made me wonder if she's actually projecting her own feelings onto him. (Of course I don't doubt for a second she loves her son, but if she feels guilty about secretly not loving her husband and therefore being a terrible wife, she could be projecting her fear that she's not a good enough mother in that form.)

    Like @Jetamors said, there are so many variables here, but here's my absolute best case scenario: Lori only keeps the secret long enough to have a talk with Shane about what Rick coming back means for them and how she expects things to go between him and Carl from now on (i.e. you're not his father figure but you can be friends and teach him things). Then she has to tell Rick about what happened. Like @Katbird said, we all know Rick would have forgiven her. (I mean he figured it out himself without her telling him and he still ended up essentially doing that???) Interesting interpretation about Shane wanting to be Rick. I can absolutely see that.

    I agree except to say she probably would have been happier in the end, after all the drama was over, if she went through with the painful process of letting the truth be known and communicating through it. She was a very fearful woman, sadly.

    I think Shane being involved (or worse, telling Rick by himself), Rick would be defensive and angry. Lori alone was the best case scenario imo. Kind of like it happened in S2.
     
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  16. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    Sorry I was late on the re-watch - busy week.

    I agree with what most have already said. I do believe Rick overheard their conversation outside of the RV and started putting two and two together. Notice that when he comes out of the RV and asks them the question he stares overlong at Lori.

    To this day I'm still pissed AF that she couldn't back him up when he asks if she agrees with Shane that his leaving for Merle was the wrong choice and they wouldn't have lost so many people .. The look on his face, he so desperately wanted her to back him, but nope she takes some neutral bullshit stance that both he and Shane aren't entirely right.. This was a past decision, people died, give the man a crumb for crying out loud!

    I think Shane was already put off when Lori sided with Rick about the CDC, he could tell she did it just to effectively say to him, 'I'm choosing my husband's side whether it's wrong or right', not that she really believes it's a good idea (earlier, when it really mattered and alone with Rick she didn't side with him - this is all about Lori trying to tell Shane I'm choosing Rick and being the dutiful wife). Shane gives her a look that just broadcasts how shoved aside he feels. This coupled with Rick's comment is what makes him have that gun trained on Rick. You could just hear him thinking "if I just pull this trigger, it will be like it was and I'll be the one she needs." I do agree that a part of it is Shane wanting to be Rick, in that he wants what Rick has, however I do think Shane believes he is a better man for Lori because he is a better protector than Rick, even from his comments when Rick decided to return for Merle, he believes Rick takes what he has (Lori and Carl) for granted, which is why in future he repeatedly states that Rick can't keep them safe and that he is a better man than Rick.

    2. I would not have left the safety of a larger group, especially with two small children and a wife, who doesn't even know how to protect herself. He had no one to watch his back and in essence had three vulnerable dependants. Having experienced the camp attack and knowing how overrun Atlanta was, I'm still surprised he made the choice to leave with his family. I always wondere what happened to them.

    3. The women were a little better. I kept thinking Carol was going to hurt herself the way she heaved that pickaxe backwards! LOL

    4. Andrea put her face and throat right next to Reanimated Amy' mouth, I didn't realize how close she was. Seems unrealistic she didn't get bit.

    Hated, hated, hated that music and its build up to the cymbals during the RV drive with Jim, don't know why it seemed cheesy to me.

    Loved the opening walkie chat from Rick to Morgan I think it really began to sink in for me how dire their situation was after that monologue. I also still wondered what was happening on Morgan's end and why Morgan hadn't been there at dawn in the beginning. Later he says he turned it on but by that time Rick was already out of range.
     
  17. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    God, I'm so slow with the rewatch, but here we go.

    1. What do you think set Shane off that caused him to target Rick suddenly ?
    I forgot Shane pointed his gun at Rick this early. For some reason I thought it was in season 2. If I was Dale, I would not just stand there and stare at a man with a gun aimed at another man. I’d keep that shit to myself and alert Rick.

    But clearly what set him off is the comment Rick made--about understanding if he had a family of his own. I think it's at this point that it becomes crystal clear to Shane that Lori and Carl are not his family, and he's forced to confront that from the man whose family it is. It's a complicated set of emotion. It's not something that just happened overnight. We see something bubbling in Shane when Rick arrived, but I still am genuinely surprised it happened this early.

    2. Would you have made the decision the Morales did ?
    I would not take the chance to split up from the group, especially to meet up with more family. That sounds callous, but if I had my immediate family with me, I would rather to go to CDC or the army base than to my extended family. CDC or army base are big organizations. They have more chances of still being up and running than my extended family who may have died or moved on. Not to mention traveling with two vulnerable children? No. I would stick with my big group that have people who can fight and protect in addition to weapons and some food and fuel.

    3. What do you think about how the writers wrote the women in this episodes ? (I will probably ask this question or a variation of it in every post because I noticed in the last discussion that it was hot topic when it comes to comparing the writers).
    I don’t know why Andrea pulling the gun on Rick, who backed away slowly while profusely apologizing made me laugh. But, I’m so glad Andrea was able to put down Amy. With the way the women were written this season, I wouldn’t have been surprised if Andrea began to cower as walker Amy took a hold of her, and Rick and Shane came in saving her. I like that Lori was carving out a weapon while they were huddled in a circle. About time, ladies!

    I don't blame Lori for not being able to tell Rick he was right for leaving. She made her thoughts clear on that matter, but he had his mind made up (before she could even offer her input).

    This whole episode had been a power struggle with Rick and Shane that I liked it when Lori told them it’s not their call when it came to leaving Jim. Lori is caught in the crossfire, and she attempted to answer in a way that ended up being neutral. It wasn't until Shane accused her of being the dutiful wife that she made her choice. I think it became clear to her that it didn't matter which option she chose (CDC or army base) but what guy she sided with. Rick made it very clear that he needs her support, and given that the two are trying to reconcile their marriage, it made sense why she chose Rick's option.

    4.What did you noticed was different from the last time you view this episodes ? ( This is a question I will asked in every episode post)

    I love how adamant Glenn was about burying the non-walkers.

    This episode felt very much like a movie, and I think it had to do with the soundtrack. It’s very different and prominent. In later episodes, the soundtrack is a bit more subtle, even in some emotional moments, so to hear it so dominant in the background is very strange.
     
  18. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    You know, I was just thinking about this again. My answer for myself is exactly ^^^ but I didn't know what to say about it if I was in the Morales' shoes. Just now I remembered something I thought about, the first time I watched. What if they could sense the rising conflict between Shane and Rick? Maybe they were afraid the group would fall apart with two very different men wrestling for leadership. (And heck, what if Dale wasn't the only one who saw Shane point that rifle at Rick?)
     
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  19. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Caribbeanqueen11,

    That scene pissed me off and made me feel so sad for Rick. He was desperate for a moment of faith/trust from Lori. I think he might not have been that desperate for her to back him-up, if before the Z.A she hadn't questioned whether he loved her and Carl. I think that was put into the mix because Shane made it seems like Rick decision to leave the camp might have cost Carl and Lori's life. He was desperate for her to show that she knows he loves them and would do anything to protect her and Carl, despite what she said before Z.A.

    I agree. I think this played a big part in why Shane aimed that gun at Rick and I think it will continued to play a part in how Shane view Rick and treat Rick, because from the first episode we saw that Shane is willing to put Lori and Carl above everyone else in the group. While Rick on the other hand will do anything to protect Carl and Lori but he can't just put push aside people in his group to do it. That will continue to make Shane see Rick as being less deserving of having a family.
     
  20. lovingdead

    lovingdead The New Mrs. Grimes

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    1. What do you think set Shane off that caused him to target Rick suddenly ?
    I don't think it was one thing. It was a buildup of everything and what he saw as a potential opportunity. It was very cold blooded and at this point I can never sympathize with Shane. I don't blame him for feeling hurt and displaced, but if it comes to the point that you are fighting the urge to shoot your best friend it's time for a wake up call. A true friend would have wanted to come clean at that point. If he had to go to Lori first and tell her, so be it, but at this point Shane lets himself cross a line by having two dark secrets instead of one.

    2. Would you have made the decision the Morales did ?
    Hell no. I can see them questioning a strain in group dynamics, but safety in numbers is a good rule in a crisis. They may make that trip for nothing if they find their family gone or dead.

    3. What do you think about how the writers wrote the women in this episodes ? (I will probably ask this question or a variation of it in every post because I noticed in the last discussion that it was hot topic when it comes to comparing the writers).
    Andrea was freaking me out with Amy but I'm glad she was strong enough to put her down.
    I like that Lori tried to be of comfort to other group members.
    I love Jackie not hesitating to rat Jim out, haha. And then she was so emotional for him in the end.
    Loved seeing Carol bash Ed's head in. The first hint of badass Carol?

    4.What did you noticed was different from the last time you view this episodes ? ( This is a question I will asked in every episode post)
    I didn't miss much the first viewing but these are my notes on this time around:
    1. Is Jim clairvoyant, do flashes of walker life haunt those bitten or is he hallucinating based on fear? He did predict the quarry walker attack and outcome. But we also see Shane have these kind of walker conscious visions in the future without being bitten. I'm not sure if this is all suppose to be open to interpretation or if the show just dropped having an explanation. We never see this again in later seasons.
    2. Glenn is already the voice of humanity.
    3. This is the beginning of my biggest Dale turnoff. He sees Shane's shade directed at Rick but really does nothing. As the show progresses, Dale repeatedly confronts Shane with no real follow through. I was like if you're gonna punk him, punk him for real. But no, he'd rather just whine and he never shares any of this with Rick.
    4. I would kind of love to see the Morales family again. Not sure if it would be reunion overkill though, considering Morgan makes a comeback.
    5. I laughed at their first vehicle breakdown.
    6. I loved the Jenner intro. In a way it is a parallel to Rick being all alone in this world. The difference is Rick woke up in this world without a clue, surviving on the outside and maintaining hope. Jenner was fully aware since the beginning, is now isolated and has lost all hope. It's like his story is Rick in reverse, if that makes sense.
    7. Andy really brought the feels with his desperate plea to be let into the CDC.
     
    #20 lovingdead, Jun 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016