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Poll TWD Rewatch Club: 18 Miles Out 2x10

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by SevenStars, Aug 6, 2016.

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What Grade would you give 2x09 ?

This poll will close on Sep 6, 2019 at 2:00 PM.
  1. A

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. B

    4 vote(s)
    80.0%
  3. C

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    Hey everyone,

    I'm sure you noticed that I didn't make a post for Wednesday. Since no one had said anything about whether they wanted to keep it 2 episodes per/week or 1 episodes per/week, I assumed that people were going in the direction of 1 episodes per/week. But people spoke-up and we are going to keep it 2 episodes per/week until S7 premiere. When that happens, we are only going to do 1 episode per/week and it will be on a Wednesdays and go back to 2 episodes per/week during S7 hiatus. To keep things on track, I'm taking @Sasha's Living Room suggestion that most people seems agree with that we double up for this Sunday. That's one of the reasons why I'm making the post for ep 10-11 early, so that people can have time to watch these episodes and catch-up.

    As for the live viewing, I was thinking we can also double up on the day that we pick to do it to try to make things easier. Or maybe two episode live viewing on the same day is too much for some people. If it is, please speak up and also tell me what days/time is good for you during the week of 8/10.

    Anyway onto the questions :

    1. What do you think of Andrea’s statement to Lori about Lori actions ?

    2. Do you think Rick would have gone back to get Shane if he hadn’t seen those two cops lying on the floor next to each other ?

    3. What you think about Rick/Shane conversation at the start of the episode ?

    4.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?

    5. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?

    @Sasha's Living Room @lovingdead @Katbird @Flower1petals @Caribbeanqueen11 @MrsG@chaundee @Gooey Goobert @Canuckgirl @Jetamors
    @TexasZAgal
     
  2. Flower1petals

    Flower1petals Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    I'm so sorry I've slacked. I just haven't been able to keep up, we're always outside now that it's summer. I watch a few eps from the Sunday marathon but that's it. I have been reading post though. They are very thought provoking.
     
    #2 Flower1petals, Aug 6, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
  3. lovingdead

    lovingdead The New Mrs. Grimes
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    OMG I just realized how behind I am. Will try to catch up but my summer got super busy.
     
  4. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    For the live-viewing, any time in the evening is fine with me.

    1. What do you think of Andrea’s statement to Lori about Lori actions ?

    Ah, the scene that I dread. I honestly think it goes beyond Lori has internalized misogyny. She told Andrea that she killed two walkers when she went after Rick, and then adds, “don’t act like you’re the only one who can take care of herself”. I get the feeling Lori is jealous of Andrea and her independence. Andrea doesn’t have a guy beside her side like Lori has Rick, Carol has Daryl, and now Maggie has Glenn. And the one guy she does have (Dale), she pushes away.

    Yes, there is Maggie, but I think it’s telling they have her sequestered away in the house.

    This whole episode, Lori talks about roles, and Andrea doesn’t fit neatly into one, so that infuriates her.

    The jealousy goes both ways though. Her husband and son came back from being shot. To Andrea, she is the luckiest person around. Lori hasn’t suffered the loss Andrea has, and in fact, she just keeps winning.

    I don’t think either woman’s assessment of the other is accurate, but I understand where they’re getting it from.

    2. Do you think Rick would have gone back to get Shane if he hadn’t seen those two cops lying on the floor next to each other ?

    Interesting and difficult question. I do think he would have went back. The two dead cops solidified his decision once he was presented a pathway (gun and ammo). I’d like to think he wouldn’t have went far and would have turned around, but I’m glad he made the decision sooner or else Shane would have perished. Leaving Shane to die so he no longer had to deal with him is too easy, and once Rick mulled it over, he came to that decision to come back for him.

    3. What you think about Rick/Shane conversation at the start of the episode ?

    I completely forgot it. I didn’t even remember Rick confronted Shane about the Otis incident, and Shane owned up to it in his usual Shane-like fashion. I also forgot that line where Rick talked about breaking Shane’s jaw when he discovered the affair. He admitted that he figured it out quickly, so that’s why I think the lack of reaction he displayed to Lori was because he’s been sitting on this information for a while. Although I do think part of it is because of his eroding marriage, it takes a lot to look your friend in the eye and say, “I get it” when they had an affair with your wife. I didn’t find that kind of a behavior of a push-over. I just see a person with incredible strength and sensibility (almost too much sensibility). Hell, then Rick gives Shane a chance for the two to move forward and bury the past. Talk about peaceful resolutions (that doesn’t last).

    Shane said something interesting thing about that day at the hospital when he left Rick. He said, “You know, I tried to get you out. I tried, but we weren’t gonna make it. Man, there was no way, and I knew it. But I couldn’t live with it. I couldn’t live, knowing—but I had to.” I just have to go back to that debate of, did Shane know Rick was dead or alive when he left him because what he chooses to say here indicates to me that Shane was aware that Rick was alive in that moment, but he chose to leave him behind. It makes more sense to me that the guilt he was feeling was because he left his friend behind who was still in that moment alive not that he left the corpse of his dead friend. Shane is a practical person, and while this is his best friend, I’m not sure where the immense amount of guilt is coming from if he just left his dead friend behind. I don’t think it’s just from the affair either because this is all before that.

    Also, I am convinced that Shane and Lori did not have an affair before the ZA. He told Rick that he didn’t look at her like that before, and I believe they’ve hinted multiple times when that affair started.

    4.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?

    I think so. This episode primarily revolved around the women and all four of them played an important role. And they passed the Bechdel test too. This is what I mean when I say I want more women interaction in later seasons. Of course, this doesn’t carry over to the rest of the season, and I think part of the reason why they were able to have this interaction is because of that gender divide they have.

    5. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?

    Lori’s talk with Maggie is funny because I feel that’s what the fandom does in regards to Rick vs Shane. That Lori was the master puppeteer pitting these two men who were the best of friends.

    It makes me sad that we weren’t able to see how the crew fared during the winter months.

    I love the walker in suit making his way across the field. They used that image for the opening sequence. I don’t know why I like it. Maybe because the walker sticks out, and it clearly doesn’t belong.

    When Rick said the gun is easier but there’s other ways to do it (kill walkers), I felt like that was a nice way to compare Rick and Shane’s methods. Shane is supposedly the practical guy, but his way is often the easy way out.

    I forgot Rick was still keeping from the group what Jenner said about them being all infected. Clearly, Shane is getting suspicious when he notices the absence of bites on some of the dead.

    The Randall kid looks like a young Jake Gyllenhaal during his Donnie Darko days.

    The seriousness behind the question, “You went to school with Maggie?!” is just so funny to me.

    Damn, Rick and Shane picked the worst moment to have a physical fight. I also wonder how they would feel if they end up doing some serious damage to the other. Right now it was just face wounds, but these things were clearly escalating. Although we’re aware of Shane’s growing blood thirst, would Rick have continued? Also, what the hell, were all these walkers hard of hearing? How did they not come out just hearing these two men go at it?

    Ok, seriously, where the hell is Hershel? They keep saying that they don’t want him to find out, but where did they tuck him away?

    I understand where Andrea is coming from when it came to giving Beth a choice, but her version could have gone south really really badly. What if Beth does commit suicide? How would Maggie live with herself if she followed Andrea’s advice? I think it’s a bit easier for Andrea to implement it because this isn’t her sister. Lucky for them, everything worked out, but that approach is just as flawed.
     
  5. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    So if we double up on live viewing days... would that mean we'd watch two episodes together? Would it be the one before the finale and the finale, or the finale and then the premiere of S3? Or is it that we'd put up the post for the episode before the finale, and do a live view of the finale the same day? Sorry, I might be dumb, but I just want to get this straight.

    Anyway, on to the actual questions...
    I'm just kind of baffled at this point. Previously, Andrea gave every indication that she had no idea about Lori/Shane, and now she's suddenly dropping "boyfriend" lines into arguments? But then if she did know, then why doesn't it seem to have affected her thoughts about her and Shane in any way? Why does she play dumb to Dale? If she knew this all along, or found out in the middle somewhere, then what does that mean for Andrea as a person? I have no idea. Like I've said before, she doesn't feel like a coherent character in this season.

    I think probably so. It's really his own sense of decency and morality that makes him turn back; if he hadn't seen the bodies, something else would have twigged his conscience.

    I make notes when I watch, and at first I was going to say something about Rick trusting Lori uncritically about the Otis situation, but then I realized that his question to Shane was actually a great okey-doke. All he says is "I heard what happened at the school", and then Shane fills in the blanks all by himself. If Lori had been lying or mistaken, it would have come out then, but instead he confirmed all of it. Very clever, Mr. Grimes.

    Like @Gooey Goobert, I really loved how much of this episode revolved around the women and their relationships with each other. TWD improves on the writing of its female characters a lot from S3 on, but this is one thing they never really fixed; we get like one episode like this per season, and it really impoverishes the writing of the group. (IIRC Carol and Michonne have never had an on-screen conversation?!) I think I heard somewhere that they're planning to focus more on the women in S7; I really hope that they do, because to me that's the last big improvement they need to make.

    Also, while I complain about Andrea's writing being incoherent above, I do have to give this episode props for building on her one consistent narrative arc: whether to live or not, and her feelings about who gets to make that choice. Her response to Beth made perfect sense to me.

    Having said all that, I was really annoyed at Lori and Andrea's argument: so it's a problem that Andrea does no laundry, but it's not a problem that none of the dudes are doing laundry? It's a problem when she sits on the RV all day, but it's fine when Dale does? Come on.

    Female zombie kill count update: we break our three-episode streak of women killing zombies here :(

    I know Rick is just trying to hide the truth here, but have there ever been any confirmed cases in-series of someone being turned into a zombie from a scratch? I don't think there are.

    I can't remember what I thought of Andrea leaving Beth alone the first time I watched. Watching now, I think I would have liked it better if Andrea had told Beth her own story first. I think a big part of the disconnect was that she didn't know that any of the other women had gone through a similar situation, so she didn't feel that any of them could truly empathize. Just knowing that someone else there could understand would have made a big difference, IMHO. (I also wonder if she would have considered it if Hershel had been there and she had been able to mourn together with him.)

    Do you think S6 Rick would have handled Randall any differently?
     
  6. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Actually I think it was @Katbird and not me, haha. (I asked if you were okay with it yourself.) XD

    1. Strictly speaking about Andrea's words on Lori's actions (both with Beth and her assumption that Lori is taking things for granted)... I thought it was petty and uncalled for, and I'm saying that even though I think Andrea had a tiny point* buried in midst of her overbearing, deceptive, and boundary-breaking behaviour. Wasn't it just last episode she was telling Shane he made the right calls but went about telling people in the wrong way? I don't agree Shane's OR her calls were the right ones, and it's funny it's like she's channelling him doing that exact same thing now. I didn't pick up on this the first time I saw the ep, but now I get this vibe of jealousy over Shane's affections for Lori lingering in the bitterness of Andrea's words. Is that just me? Lori being lucky enough to have her family is not only irrelevant to the issue at hand, but Andrea has no way to know how she truly feels about them all being alive!

    2. Sadly, no. I don't think he would. Shane just tried to kill him and he wasn't having it. I'm glad he did though. Rick wouldn't be Rick if he didn't try to save one of his own. Especially returning with Randall but not with Shane? Not a good look for him. (Lots of badass Rick in this ep btw. Not only in his tone when he talked to Shane at the beginning and end or told Randall to shut up, but it was also clear as day Rick had a much better idea how to handle walkers than Shane, who probably never even went on a run once, and so probably hadn't upgraded his skills much from that time 5 guys were beating on the one walker in S1.)

    3. Rick laid down the law. He made clear where both he and Lori stood and that Shane was still welcome to stay near them but only if he could respect those terms. His tone was intimidating and it should have been, considering who he was talking to (seeing as Shane is not a guy to mince words with).

    I can't decide if it was out of malice or out of being torn over wanting to keep Rick's friendship, but Shane lied. Not only did we get the confirmation he DID know Rick was alive in the hospital bed... he told Rick the opposite of what he said to Lori the previous night. He said to her that the relationship between them was "a long time coming" and that their feelings began before the ZA, while he tells Rick that he never "looked" at Lori (in that way), before. So which one is true? I suppose you could split hairs and say he was falling for her but not looking at her sexually until later, but I'd still count it as a lie since he's still maximizing the significance of their relationship to Lori and minimizing it to Rick. Why can't he be honest and upfront about his feelings right then and there? Why did he have to blow up at the school in front of Randall? I don't get how someone so dishonest and so hotheaded can think he's in a position to protect anybody.

    4. No, the opposite. I feel like the person who wrote the S1E1 conversation between Rick and Shane in the police car wrote the conversation between Lori and Andrea in the kitchen. Lori ragging on Andrea for working on her tan instead of helping with cooking and laundry and such was downright painful to listen to. (What makes it even worse is that every now and then you get these glimpses of Lori's potential to be a self-sufficient survivor if she only wanted to try. The way she grabbed that poker and jimmied the door open like that? If it was me, I'd probably have done something along the lines of the run-into-the-door-and-fall-down thing Carl does in S4 instead.)

    Andrea's no better either with implying that the domestic chores aren't equally important to keeping walkers away. Why is it so hard to take turns on dinner like they do on taking watch and why the eff can't people do their OWN damn laundry?

    We can safely credit the Ricktatorship with the end of this ridiculously anachronistic living arrangement they have going on, but the writing should have made it clear if the gender-based division of labour was coming from Shane like in the comic or if it was actually Lori's idea (since both of them seem most attached to this arrangement) or what.

    This is also the ep where relationships between women sour to what is probably their worst point in the entire series to date.

    5. Andrea's possible jealousy over Shane. Andrea's hypocrisy. Shane lying to Rick.

    *For the record about what partial "point" I think Andrea had in #1. I believe she was right Beth needed to decide for herself if she wanted to live but not in THAT way, for goodness' sake. Andrea was jumping to conclusions about Lori taking her family for granted though and I can't help but think that through all of this, she's projecting her pain over the loss of Amy. It's bizarre to me that the very person who (to me at least) so rightly told Dale off for manipulating/controlling her and having the gall to act like he was her family (when they hadn't known each other that long) is now the same one getting in the way of Beth's ACTUAL family. It was both manipulative and hypocritical, and I'm saying this as someone who happens to believe strongly in the right of people to decide for themselves whether they want to live or die.
     
  7. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Interesting. I hadn't considered that Lori might also be jealous of Andrea's independence. It fits, as does the idea that Andrea is infuriated for hearing all about people's "roles" in their little society.

    I agree they didn't have an actual affair but what do you think of what he said to Lori the previous night? I tend to think he's more likely to be telling the truth when he he's emotional (like with Lori) than he is if he says the opposite while calm.

    Yes thank you, the thought was dancing across my mind but I couldn't put it into words. He's always looking for the easiest (and purely short-term) way out.

    Right, I forgot to mention that was something I didn't notice the first time around. You can tell what Rick is thinking there. He's even actively keeping Shane from thinking about it too much, though I don't know why.

    :lol:

    :lol::lol:

    :lol::lol::lol:

    I got the impression Andrea figured it out from the body language between Shane and Lori the night before when he said "the baby" in front of everyone. I feel like that was the moment Andrea finally understood why Shane wasn't giving her the time of day.

    :gabe2:

    Which bothers me too. In S3 something unpleasant happens to a person because he was scratched. :sasha:

    I like this. Andrea didn't say anything terrible to Beth herself, but to leave her alone without at least giving her family that clearly loves her a chance to talk to her first? Especially when Maggie was under the impression her sister wasn't going to try anything with Andrea there? Awful.

    Yep. He wouldn't have brought him back in the first place. He'd just leave him where he was, bleeding out. I'm sure S6 Rick would still have taken Michonne in though. :flirt:
     
  8. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    I forgot that conversation he had with Lori completely. Shame on me. That was only an episode ago. But you're right. I'm more likely to trust what he said to Lori than Rick. I do think he might not have looked at Lori sexually until after the ZA, but like you said, in the end he's still being dishonest. I'm not sure why he's trying to deceive Rick while at the same time trying to convince Lori that what they had wasn't a mistake. Especially when Rick is giving him the opportunity to bury the hatchet and move on. Now if Shane doesn't want to, that's fine and dandy but why bring up that lie in the first place unless he's trying to get on Rick's good side?
     
  9. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    I just realized Randall must have been aware that he was on Hershel's farm because why else bring up the fact that he went to school with Maggie? Rick and Shane must have done a terrible job keeping him in the dark. Actually, in the beginning when Rick and Shane had their conversation, and Rick ends it by saying that he wants to check on the ropes, I wondered why he bothered pulling the blindfold off if he's just checking the ropes? I'm sure Randall won't see much, but still. They're so bad and inexperienced at this. :lol:
     
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  10. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    This one,*sigh* is sad to me. It is the breaking of Rick and Shane's friendship. It is heartbreaking. I feel so much when I watch their fight, so many different things. I just wish that it could have been different for them. The two of them love each other. Like Doc Holiday says in *Tombstone*, the strain is more than they can bear. Not just Shane, but Rick, too. I got the feeling that they may have had scuffles before, but good-natured and not serious, kinda like brothers sometimes do. Rick seems to be the one who is dominant in that relationship. Shane is probably alpha to any other man he encounters, except Rick. Rick "lets" Shane use his bravado and excess of personality for their mutual benefit, especially pre ZA. But, I think it was understood between them that Rick was top dog. Probably, by all those around them, certainly in the world of police officers. Shane is not weak, just bested by Rick. Poor Shane, however long he and Rick have known each other, he has always longed to be Rick. Not just have what Rick has, that is incidental, but actually be Rick.
    The Beth situation is very tedious to me. It is understandable, but I don't know why it was just Andrea, who was empathetic and understanding of her feeling the way she did. It's not that far fetched that a person may feel suicidal. I know it is the vein that runs through the members of Team Fam, they can't give up, but it is understandable for a person to be despondent and maybe despair.
    I really like this episode as a boys/girls episode. It is a great way to show/give the audience some of the meat of the story and a tough piece, too.

    1. I was feeling Andrea on this one. Lori had to get a reality check sooner or later. Good for Andrea. I'm glad she told her off. In particular, the remark about a "boyfriend", oooo, good one Andrea, lol. Lori made a mean girl dig about Andrea "working on her tan", that was uncalled for. Duh, Lori, survival situation, the more hands on deck, capable, hands on deck the better for everyone. Lori has not gotten it, Andrea is right to point that out. Everything Andrea was telling her was spot on. Lori's point about not "tying a noose" is valid but not the only point. Andrea had to defend herself, and she did a good job. Lori Grimes: "The men can handle this by themselves. They don't need your help." Andrea's lost lines: "B***ch, please. Did you not see the effing dead walking the Earth?! Really, really?"

    2. Him seeing them side by side definitely got to him. The two of them, Rick and Shane, put them down--brother officers, brothers-in-arms. The two officers were there together, stuck it out together, went down together, (Aside: Do y'all wonder, like Shane was, how they died. I kinda do.). I think Rick was thinking of his bro, he just needed a reminder of why it was worth the risk, what partners do for each other. Yes, I think he would have gone back for him, even if he had not seen the officers. Leaving him caught out, that's a Shane move. Rick is not Shane, he is the hero.

    3.That was harder to watch, for me, than the fight. I was all in my Shane feels, lol. I actually said out loud: "Don't you talk mean to him, Rick. He's your friend!" Lol. I was trying to hug Shane through my tablet, lol. Rick was so cool how he started that conversation. The things Rick said to Shane, the details were about the present, but the talk was really telling him (Shane) about the future, how things were going to go, how things would be, how things could be. Rick was trying to call him back. Rick to Shane: " I need you, we need you, I love you, we can make this work." The first part of the conversation, Shane was his usual big and bad self, even managed to throw a little comment/taunt at Rick about not supposing to be there/here in reference to what happened with Otis, but that was meant for Rick. Then Rick closes the space between them and tells him about him knowing about things between him and Lori. Shane does a complete 180 in his demeanor, expression, body language, everything. He could not even look at Rick. The thing he was trying to avoid, Rick's disapproval, the only thing worse would be abandonment by Rick, is right in his face. I felt bad for him. Rick and Shane had a wonderful bond before the turn. It must have been good because we know what kind of man Rick is. Then, Shane tells Rick how things were, how crazy and scary it was while he was sleeping. Them talking was sad, because Rick could not call Shane back...it makes me cry.

    4. The women had a good storyline this episode. I feel like the writers were giving us this competing, male/female, look at the way the world is. Showing the audience the physicality that is needed to take on the upended world, 'cause that was a fight then the walkers, I think the creatives were making it be clear to us this was not to be business as usual. Then all the women being extremely domestic--Lori and Maggie talking relationships with men, preparing meals, taking care of Beth, discussing a pregnancy, my, oh, my no subtleties there.

    5. I noticed how Rick is driving that car that Shane got running on the highway, with that *Back in the Driver's Seat" song to go along with it, Alpha much, Rick? He was just talking and talking, poor Shane was just pitiful. I noticed how Randall just can't keep his mouth shut. Shane sees himself as a walker in the broken glass, which, sniff, sniff, he has become-- broken glass and a walker. Rick and Shane have to choose, I think it is tragic. I mean, the two of them have to decide if they can mean the same thing to each other as before the turn with all that has happened to them and around them. Rick is trying, but I think Shane is giving up as was mentioned before. I have to stop, I get so emotional about Rick and Shane. I need an intervention, lol.
     
  11. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    I really liked this Episode, I am a fan of SG and this was an episode he co-wrote with GM. I wished SG had written it solely. I'm not a fan of the way GM writes for women and can feel his influence in the conversations between both Lori and Andrea and Maggie and Beth.


    1. What do you think of Andrea’s statement to Lori about Lori actions ? On my first watch I was cheering for Andrea because I had wanted to smack Lori a time or two for her higher than thou attitude, and her habit of handing out orders while she kinda stands around like Queen Bee. Andrea said things most of the fans had wanted to for some time. On this re-watch Andrea does come across as jealous. Andrea knew from Ep 1 that Shane and Lori had been sleeping together, having overheard their conversation at the church when they were looking for Carl, yet even knowing he was Lori's "boyfriend" didn't stop her from getting a little side piece from him. Her words to Lori "we just keep piling up our losses while you just keep keeping on". She truly believes Lori is just living in a dream land with everything she needs and everyone she loves while everyone else around her is suffering losses. I can understand Andrea's point of view but the way she dug into Lori just screams jealousy. Mind you Lori's comments to her weren't much better. I have to admit I was hoping she'd have a little dig at Lori about getting with Shane (but that's just the little shit-disturber in me LOL).

    As an aside, the rumours that SWC and LH could not stand one another were shifted in high gear after this scene. Some felt the actors' contempt for each other was pretty obvious in this episode.


    2. Do you think Rick would have gone back to get Shane if he hadn’t seen those two cops lying on the floor next to each other ? Absolutely. Rick (at least at this point) still believes in the inherent goodness of people, especially those he loves. Rick would never live with himself if he had left Shane to die like that. If the tables were turned however Shane would not look back, mind you he'd ensure Rick was dead before he went back home.

    3. What you think about Rick/Shane conversation at the start of the episode ? There were so many little nuggets in this conversation:
    • Shane's lines re Otis: "one of us wasn't gonna make it out. It had to be him. One shot to the leg, Carl lives, the reality is he had no business being here, or there, whatever" - this to me is reminiscent of the things he said to Lori about Rick when he confronted her about the pregnancy, and told her that Rick "ain't built for this world." So long as Lori (and Carl) is alive Shane intends to be the last man standing. He gives Rick so many clues of his intent and mindset, I'm not surprised people felt Rick was being extremely naive and weak by thinking just telling Shane not to feel a certain way or not do something would be enough to stop him. Very much like slapping a Pitbull on the nose for "snarling" with the intent to attack a stranger with the word "Stop" and thinking that's enough to stop the dog from snarling or biting the minute your back is turned.
    • Shane avoids answering Rick when Rick asks him if he thinks he can't keep Lori and Carl safe by saying "I didn't say that", but when Rick says "is it gonna have to be me too" (referring to whether Shane will kill him as he did Otis) Shane's answer is Yes, but he affirms this in a round about way that the audience and Rick doesn't pick up right away by stating, "Rick you can't expect to be the good guy and expect to live, not anymore". Rick counters that with "I'm not the good guy anymore" basically saying he's not someone Shane has described that does not belong in the world, but he later proves he IS the good guy by saving Randall and sparing Shane. He has, in effect, signed his death warrant as far as Shane is concerned. What's sad to me is Rick truly believes that by telling Shane he's not going to "be dangerous" to "us or to me" is enough to talk Shane out of whatever dark hole he's fallen into. Rick is trying so hard to see the man he knew and give him the benefit of the doubt.
    • As Rick is talking to Shane, the look on Shane's face and his inability to hold Rick's gaze as he starts talking about Lori at one point felt like a parent scolding a wayward child, the child looks down and you know that while they are listening they are NOT gonna do what they are told. Rick is convinced that Shane does not love Lori and IMO this is where he underestimates Shane's obsession with her, perhaps if Rick knew that they were going at it like rabbits for some time and that it wasn't a one time deal, maybe he would have had a better understanding of how close and intimate they became.
    • Shane's telling of the events of the beginning of the ZA was also interesting - "couple weird stories on the news and it was so quick, everything, it just happened. Two weeks later I'm in the hospital and there were soldiers shooting people in the hall..." I agree with @Sasha's Living Room that he knew Rick was alive when he left him at the hospital and, he may have not have "looked at Lori before that" but IMO he was attracted to her but would have never acted on it. For me it's a timing thing. They left for the City (Atl) after the 2 weeks, got caught in the traffic snarl and Rick came along 2 or 3 weeks later, likely less as he would have starved to death in the hospital were he laying in that bed for more than 3 weeks without fluids. So in less than 5 weeks Shane and Lori had been as he said to her "carrying on quite a bit". So it appears there was more to it than just falling into each other's arms for solace. I also find it sad that Rick mourned for Lori for almost a year and she maybe mourned for a month give or take.
    Now, all of the above being said, I still disagree with the fans who thought Rick was weak or naive. I think Rick is a strategist. Rick may not believe Shane is in "love" with Lori, but I think he knows Shane is "obsessed with her", I don't think he truly understands the depth of that obsession. Rick realizes they need all the manpower they can get and is willing to give Shane a chance to get over it. IMO it takes a strong leader with great insight to do want Rick does in this situation. He knows his wife, he knows his friend and I believe he understands they both are at fault here, but for him his focus is on keeping everyone alive and looking forward. The actions he takes in the next few episodes I believe speak quite clearly of his understanding of all the players involved, especially Shane.

    4.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?
    While I enjoyed the women's interaction, the conversation between Lori and Andrea just highlighted to me the sexist themes. As someone noted above, why is it if Andrea is sitting on top of the RV with a gun she's 'working on her tan', but the men doing it is 'protection'?. WTF!

    Lori knows how to use a gun, but she tells Andrea that the men have it covered, instead stressing the need for help
    with the "womens work". It's not like the men are looking for Sophia anymore why can't they help out equally.

    5. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?
    I did not think it was necessary to bring the suicide issue back to the forefront. This was an arc in the comics, but I believe the nod to it with Andrea was sufficient and EK's bad acting was just painful to watch. I really also disliked the disjointed feeling of the cuts between the farm and Shane and Rick stuff which was really noticeable to me on this watch.

    The editing issue was a problem as well. During their fight Shane pulled on Rick's (sexy) snap front shirt and it fully opened, but in the next shot only the 3 top snaps are open, to my disappointment. LOL

    Also, the walker in the field should have been on Rick's side driving back and going in the opposite direction, unless they're driving in a circle.
     
    #11 Caribbeanqueen11, Aug 7, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2016
  12. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    Exactly. They have ample time now that no one is looking for Sophia, and it's not like all the men are out on a run all at once or all the time. Only couple, usually two people, go out at a time. And since they haven't expressed any shortage of food and water, I'm pretty sure those runs aren't frequent. Also, not all of them are on watch duty either, so what are they doing with that time instead? Twiddling their thumbs?

    And I know women can be sexist too, but since this is a fictional story, the fact the writers chose to have all of this come out of a woman's mouth is exceedingly frustrating.
     
  13. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I never considered Andrea was feeling envious/jealous of Lori. I just got the feeling that Beth's situation was a kind of emotional trigger for her--bringing her back to her loss of Amy and how she felt at the CDC. I was thinking that was the reason she initiated the conversation by saying it could have been handled better...she was remembering her bad time. And, she was frustrated and fed up with Lori. Yeah, as is suggested by others, it may all stem from feelings of jealousy or envy.
    The question about S6 Rick and Randall, I seriously doubt that that Rick would have hemmed and hawed about what was to be done with Randall. I'm sorry to say, (not really sorry?--he has to be like that) Rick would have killed him.
     
  14. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    I love, loved Rick and Shane’s conversation in the begin of the episode. The way Shane was looking like a little boy while Rick lecture him made laugh me, and also reminds me that Rick was the man that Shane looked-up to. Rick was the man that Shane measured himself against, always come up short.


    I loved Andrea and Lori’s fight in the kitchen. I think Lori did the right thing taking the knife away from Beth and telling Herschel and Maggie about what Beth wanted to do. But I agreed with Andrea, unless Beth is able to find a reason to keep going, she would have find a way to kill herself. But at least Lori’s gave her one more hr/day to think about whether this was really the path she wanted to go in.


    Rick speech to Shane about how it shouldn’t be that easy to just kill someone reminded me so much of Morgan speech to him in S6.


    1. What do you think of Andrea’s statement to Lori about Lori actions ?
    I cheered Andrea when she told Lori that she wasn't grateful for what she had. I cheered her because I felt that way about Lori, like she isn't appreciative even/grateful enough about the fact unlike everyone else in their group, she got her closes family around her. Unlike the rest of the group, she can/pretend that things are normal. Because she has her husband/son and even their family closes friend with her. But others like Andrea/Carol can't pretend that things are normal cause the loss they have suffers won't allow them. Andrea was bitter, and jealous but was right in that regard.

    2. Do you think Rick would have gone back to get Shane if he hadn’t seen those two cops lying on the floor next to each other ?
    I think he would have because I don't think Rick could just leave Shane to die without first giving him a second chance. Rick loves Shane too much for that. Rick was desperate to find a way to keep Shane with him, to keep the relationship they had. It was really heart-breaking for me to see how much Rick was desperate to get back the Shane who was his best-friend/brother. But unfortunately, Shane didn't have that same desire.


    3. What you think about Rick/Shane conversation at the start of the episode ?
    It was interesting to hear Shane claim that if he wish he could change things. That he never had any desire for Lori before the Z.A. When in the last episode Shane implied to Lori that there was always something between them that was just waiting to happen. So to hear him say something different to Rick was kind of surprising because I wasn't expecting him to show that much fake remorse.

    I love, love the way Rick spoke to Shane. Rick showed why he is the better man. Why people shouldn't mistake his kindness for weakness, something that Shane seems to always do.

    4.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?
    I like the way Lori supported Maggie and tried to help Beth. I liked that even though Lori had just fight with Andrea and didn't seem to particular care for Andrea, she still kind of defended Andrea's action to Maggie. I liked that they were interacting together in situation that wasn't gender related but morally ambiguous. It was nice to see.

    5. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?
    I didn't notice anything different from last time, which surprises me because I usually do.
     
  15. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    It's okay I understand. The summer is kind of family time for most people. Join us anytime you can.
     
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  16. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    @Jetamors

    Yes, I think S6 Rick would have just killed Randall without question.
     
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  17. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    @Jetamors, I agree with @SevenStars that Season 6 Rick would have killed Randall without question. I would also go one step further and say S6 Rick would have left Randall where he fell. Randall and his buddies signed their death warrant when they shot at Rick's people, so Rick would not have wasted the bullet or risked the family to see if Randall could be helped, he'd have been left for the Walkers no questions asked.
     
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  18. Gooey Goobert

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    Yup, gotta agree with everyone else that Rick would have killed Randall in S6 had he not already left him. That's not to say Rick is just a shoot first, ask questions later kinda guy since he didn't do the same with Jesus, but Rick is very perceptive, and he could easily see Jesus had something to offer unlike the danger Randall posed.
     
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