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Poll TWD Rewatch Club: Better Angels 2x12

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by SevenStars, Aug 10, 2016.

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What grade would you give episode 2x11 ?

This poll will close on Sep 10, 2019 at 6:02 PM.
  1. A

    3 vote(s)
    75.0%
  2. B

    1 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. C

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    Hey guys,

    So this is the last episode before the finale. That means we need to decide on a day/hr to do the live viewing. Some people have spoke up and stated what day/time would be best for them. If you haven't done so and wants to join us, please do so. I will PM people to talk more about this. Also, you don't have to be up to date on your rewatch to join us in this rewatch. The more people who can join us, the better I think it will be.

    @Caribbeanqueen11 Thank you for all the extra info you have been blessing us with in your posts I really love knowing these things, especially since I'm late to the fandom so wasn't here when all of these things were going down. So thank you for filling us in. Also, do you know if the writer who wrote this episode is still writing for the show ?

    For this episode I wanted to ask a lot of questions but I stop myself, lol.

    1.What did you take away from Lori and Shane conversation ?

    2. Do you think Shane would have change after the way Rick talked to him, if Rick hadn’t kill him ?

    3. What do you think of the way Rick reacted when he saw Carl holding the gun ?

    4.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?

    5. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?

    @Sasha's Living Room @lovingdead @Katbird @Flower1petals @Caribbeanqueen11 @MrsG @chaundee @GooeyGoobert @Canuckgir l@Jetamors
    @TexasZAgal
     
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  2. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    I forgot S2 only has 13 episodes. So the finale will be this Sunday? I'm fine with anytime then as I'm free all day. Whatever works for the majority.

    1.What did you take away from Lori and Shane conversation ?

    When Rick came back, Lori immediately pushed away Shane. Part of the reason was because she was trying to keep the secret from Rick. But the truth is out, and Shane continues to isolate himself from the group, and she can’t help but think she’s to blame for some of the conflict. I saw it as Lori’s last ditch effort to make amends with Shane and end this peacefully. She is thankful for all that he’s done, and she tells him that it wasn’t all one sided. She felt some way towards him too.

    I did think she was needlessly piling up the blame for herself. She wasn’t entirely at fault for everything. Her approach could have been better, but Shane is responsible for himself. But of course, she’s not about to level blame at him when she’s trying to extend the olive branch. She has no idea how Shane would use those words to spur him into action.

    I’m always in awe when people look at the way the situation played itself, scoop up all the blame and pile it up on Lori.

    2. Do you think Shane would have change after the way Rick talked to him, if Rick hadn’t kill him ?

    This scene just changed the whole game. I always assumed when the inevitable Rick vs. Shane showdown happened, Rick would kill Shane out of self-defense, and it would be justified. But this? This went into a morally grey area that I wasn’t expecting. You could argue that it was still self-defense since Shane had his weapon at him, but I don’t think even Rick believes that.

    Who knows what Shane would have done if Rick spared him. Maybe he would get better. Maybe he would leave. Or maybe he would have killed Rick. I’m thinking it would be the last option. Shane and Rick would have made up temporarily until the two had another disagreement that would leave Shane in a huff. Much like what happened in 2.10, “18 Miles Out” where it looks like the two temporarily made up in the end.

    I guess it is especially ironic that on the day Rick is determined to set their prisoner free, he ends up killing Shane.

    3. What do you think of the way Rick reacted when he saw Carl holding the gun ?

    It was heartbreaking. I can’t imagine. Rick just wanted to desperately explain himself to Carl. Make him understand.

    Although, Rick must be losing some of his hearing or grief hit him hard, because I can’t believe he didn’t hear the moaning from Walker Shane shuffling towards him.

    4.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?

    Still the same. I’m disappointed that Andrea didn’t join the men on the hunt for Randall.

    5. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?

    Rick’s eulogy for Dale was perfectly succinct. Like he characterized Dale so accurately and right down to his trademark look. :daleeye:

    Guess the group is still inefficient when it comes to killing walkers. Why do we have four people on one? :lol:

    I don’t blame Andrea for not wanting to babysit Shane even though I don’t think it’s as simple as Rick not leaving anymore. Although I do think Rick jumps off way too frequently from his family. Of course, there’s always a good reason accompanied with that.

    I oddly agreed with Shane when he said that it was important for Rick to talk to Carl, but as always, Shane has no tact. At all. I actually think it would be good to have both Rick and Lori present when that talk happened with Carl. I’m not sure why it had to be one or the other—talk with Carl or free Randall. Why couldn’t Rick just do it before or after the Randall ordeal? I know Rick does get around to having a heart wrenching discussion with Carl in the barn. So, I guess that whole thing with Shane was his way of saying that he’s in charge.

    Oh, god that barn scene. It just messes me up for what’s to come and what will come. I love it and the piano slowly playing in the background.

    I loved Andrea and Glenn mourning. I like the fact that Andrea is at peace with it. He was far from perfect, but Dale did teach Andrea to deal with grief, and she was able to do that here without spiraling. I liked how they had a call back to when Dale taught Glenn to fix the vehicle. I also loved that Glenn mentions Dale in S6 as one of the people who he remembers.

    Even though I wonder how Shane would have affected the story had he not died, I still think his ending was perfect and necessary.

    T Dog saying, “Yo, Randy. Governor called. You’re off the hook,” may have hinted at our future villain. Didn’t notice that when I first watched.

    There was a thread on here somewhere about whether Shane was intent on killing Randall. I can’t find it, but I believe the basic argument was why did Shane bother dragging Randall out in the woods, follow him, and then kill him. I would have to say he did that to get Randall to spill his group’s location, had Randall hobble around to get the general direction, and then killed him. I also think there was this hesitancy because he was going to have kill another man. There was a moment where he pulls out his gun, but he realized it would attract less attention if he just snapped Randall’s neck. I believe after Shane had taken Rick out of the picture, he would convince everyone to hunt down Randall’s group, and since he knows where that group is situated, he would sort of nudge everyone to that general area.

    Damn, Randall was quite the troublesome walker with all that body slamming and flailing around. :lol:

    I honestly think this episode would have made a better S2 finale. Everything about it screamed finale to me, and it left me feeling more pumped than the actual one. Shit hits hard next episode but something about the ending doesn’t seem very finale like. If they wanted to show the Prison hint, they could have saved it as a post credit scene or something.
     
  3. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    So she's trying to apologize for (her part in) getting mixed up with Shane and thank him for protecting her and her son. That's fine, though I'd have much preferred she do that with her husband (or almost any other adult) there. Then there's the slip about her ALSO thinking that she and Shane had something there. Big facepalm moment there. I found it unnerving that she even made offhand comment about how she turned Rick and Shane against each other (evidently believing that was all in the past), without any comprehension of the effect this would have on Shane. She's not the greatest at reading people, that's for sure. In fact, when I think of her that way, it explains a lot.

    No, not really. At best he might have spared him that night (were they really searching that long? Why couldn't we get a shot of the sunset at least?), but it wouldn't have lasted long if so.

    Well he already felt guilty and afflicted. So I figure once he saw Carl, he also felt judged. I just wish Carl said something, but they needed a dramatic moment there.

    No one gave Andrea a hassle (that we saw at least) for fighting walkers with the men. Other than that, same thing.

    - After Shane was revved up from talking with Lori, he did his angrily guilting Rick thing (the same thing he's been doing consistently since S1). I noticed he conveniently kept the part about Carl taking Daryl's gun to himself until after calling Rick out for not doing anything about it. It's like Shane wants to prove to himself that Rick is a bad father, by leaving out the most important detail (stolen gun) and then blaming Rick for not reacting appropriately to something he knows little to nothing about. (I gather the reason Rick has to be the one to talk to Carl is because a gun was involved, and Lori shies away from handling weapons, which takes away from her credibility.)

    - Shane was making creepy walker-like breathy noises in the barn before taking Randall out, and then when drawing on Rick

    - I noticed the first time that Rick caught on to what Shane was doing before they got to the clearing, but I don't think I noticed how incredibly early he began pausing for a moment as he followed Shane, while pulling the most blatantly skeptical faces. Rick has always been a man who runs toward danger to protect the ones that he loves. Anyone else get the feeling he told Glenn and Daryl to go together and went with Shane himself specifically because he was already suspicious from the get-go?

    - Rick had faith in Shane's conscience to the end (i.e. that he wouldn't be able to live with it after killing Rick).
     
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  4. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    Thanks as always, @SevenStars! Sunday afternoon or evening (according to Pacific time zone) works best for me, preferably after about 2pm PST.

    Haha, I had so many thoughts on this. I have a big issue with it, but I'm not sure it's the same one that most people have: Lori knows at this point that Shane shot Otis and left him to die. So she thinks he's a murderous psycho, but she's also kind of still in love with him? She runs to tell Rick how terrible he is, and then a week later they're having heartfelt conversations? The same issue is there with Rick, actually; why was he keeping this guy around and trying to salvage their friendship? Even if they think he's no longer possessive of Lori, they should still be treating him with a lot of suspicion because of that, but instead they both try to just let bygones be bygones?

    If you take away that aspect, Lori's actions make more sense to me here. She's falling into her older pattern of depending on him due to the stress of Dale's death. It's interesting to me that she goes to Shane to process her feelings, instead of Rick. (Which may also be because Rick is so busy--ties into her older complaints about him being unavailable and uncommunicative.) I said a few episodes ago that I didn't think she was still into him at all, but I think this episode shows that I was wrong about that.

    If I wanted to give a more extensive, sympathetic explanation: She was freaked out about Shane being dangerous and possessive, but it's been a week or two, and nothing bad has happened. Rick and Shane even went out together, and they came back in one piece, and Rick said it had been handled. So she's thinking, maybe it was handled. Maybe I was even wrong about him before. And if Shane is a sane person, a lot of the discussion changes; maybe he can take more of a role in Lori's child's life, for example. I actually don't think this is the only reasonable explanation; I think more negative interpretations can also be supported. But it's plausible.

    On Shane's side, it's a lot simpler: Lori thaws toward him somewhat, and he's right back to the killing Rick plan. (Though I think he would have tried it again eventually even if she hadn't talked to him.) Even if you interpret Lori's actions as negatively as possible, there is no possible excuse for his actions. He's just a flat-out terrible person. If he had successfully killed Rick, I don't think there's any question that he would have gone on to abuse Lori; there's no way she would have reacted to Rick's death the way he thought she would (pretending Rick never existed and becoming Shane's wifey immediately), and she would be the main "obstacle" to their "happiness", in his mind.

    No way. He's been given so many chances to do something else, and he's refused every single one. He couldn't be there.

    (I wonder whether Rick thought back to this when he exiled Carol in S4. The situations were similar in some ways, but with Carol a non-lethal solution was possible; he knew she wasn't going to sneak back in and knife him in his sleep.)

    I felt so bad for him there :( I think every parent is afraid that they're going to totally screw up their child, and I bet that was exactly what Rick was thinking just then.

    Not really. Though one thing I was thinking: I actually wish Rick and Andrea had interacted more in the show. I don't think they have any romantic chemistry at all, but they have pretty good platonic chemistry! I thought so in their first scene way back in 1x02, and I think they do in this episode as well. I would have liked to see them build a real friendship.

    Female zombie kill count update: Andrea kills two with a pitchfork, ending the drought.

    All I really remember from the first time I watched this was the mounting sense of dread I felt in all of Rick and Shane's scenes, so some general thoughts:

    To the end, Shane just really did not get Rick. I especially noticed it with that "you've got a broken boy" line--he saw Rick being kind of salty about talking to Carl, but he wasn't around when Rick actually went and parented his son. He was trying to wound Rick to the bone, but instead it bounced right off, because he had no idea what was really going on there. Shane is much less perceptive about people than Rick is, and I think that's the true reason why he couldn't last long in the apocalypse.

    I really loved the scene with Glenn and Andrea getting the RV started too; to me, it was Dale's true sendoff, and it was lovely. Poor Glenn, feeling like he betrayed Dale because they disagreed in their last conversation :(

    Hey, T-Dog actually talks in this episode!
     
  5. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    Good point. Shane witheld information and brought it out to make an example.
     
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  6. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I started this post, made a big mess and had to start over. Last episode with Shane. My Shane feels get the best of me sometimes, *sniff,sniff* I really had to get over myself, lol. And, Shane really wears me out.

    I will always wish that Rick and Shane's friendship could have survived the tumult surrounding them. I will always wish they could have remained brothers. I will always remember how Shane ran over to Rick's side after he was shot. I will always think of Shane gently wiping away the blood, the blood of the boy they both loved, from Rick's face. I will always see the two of them, foreheads touching, as Shane assured Rck he would bring back the he!p Carl needed. I always think of their friendship, though we don't actually see them, before things fell apart. It was a beautiful bond, partners, friends, brothers. It makes me sad that their friendship was destroyed. I know most of the fault is Shane's (and Lori's) but I still feel bad that Rick could not call him back. Just like in the movie titled with the same name, Shane cannot come back no matter how loudly Rick ( the little boy, Joey) calls him.

    I was crying when Rick is forced to kill the man he loves after Shane tries to kill him, the man he loves. The scene in the moonlight on that little hill has a lot of imagery, as does the episode title. Brother against brother. It is well shot and well played by AL and JB. (Aside: I'm so glad for all the good things that have come Jon Berenthal's way. JB, doin' the damn thing!) Rick is well aware, but not right away, that Shane is planning to kill him. The way he kinda resigns himself after they go a little ways in the woods, heart breaking. When he starts to talk to Shane, he comes to himself and decides on a course of action to get back to his family. I wonder if he thought he talked Shane down, but was already determined to end it, so he did. I wonder about that. It is hard to watch, for me, anyway.
    I get compeletly upset when Shane has to have a little talk with Lori...again. I hate it. She just can't stop: it irks me. I am really aggravated after she walks away and Shane has that reaction. His look/response:: "What did she mean? Does she want me to do something? Is she telling me 'If only...If things were different...we could be together if...?'". Then that scene in the barn...somebody help him, please! (Or, maybe, help me, lol.). It kills me to see him like that. He is torn apart.. I think I should just answer the questions and do what Lori should have done, be done...with Shane. But, like her, I just can't seem to. It's ridiculous!

    1. The talk between those two makes me ...unhappy. Why does she do it. Just leave the boy alone, for God's sake. She comes to him all casual, talking about the past, a past incident that is domestic and invovolves him (Shane) doing something for them (her?) that Rick couldn't do. What the hell was she thinking? Like I said, it irks me. She absolutely knows what affect she has on him, why continue to bait him, or whatever? She just keeps jerking his chain, I get really annoyed thinking about it. The writers want us to get the fact that Shane is helpless when it comes to his hope of being with Lori? That his desire to have her for himself is too powerful to be controlled? It's a bad look for both of them, in particular, !ori.
    2. I don't think Shane could have come back, wish it were not so, but, I don't think he could have. But, Rick's words had a strong affect on him, at least that's what I got from how JB played it. He was looking at Rick as though he actually heard him that time. Maybe 'cause he was looking for a way out of it, a way to not have to kill the man he loved...that's how it goes in my head, anyway.
    3. Rick was shocked to see Carl there, period. Then, when he raised that gun, Rick thinks Carl is drawing on him, which means oin a way, he is choosing Shane over Rick in the uncertainty of the moment...does that make sense? Rick has just killed someone who Carl loves, he doesn't know what Carl saw or heard. His son lifts the gun and Rick thinks the worst: "Carl thinks I " killed" Shane. He thinks I'm a murderer" The look on his face says it all.
    4. Not much...I guess because of the Shane/Lori conversation, a little regression. I liked Andrea, though. He lines with Rick and Glenn, good. She was forceful with Rick and gentle with Glenn. She had what each of them needed. She's every woman! I felt bad for Maggie's character in this episode. Glenn's kinda shunning her then a small moment when Rick is getting them together to go after Randall, Rick taps Glenn for the duty, Maggie gives him that "don't go" look, Glenn all but ignores her and heads out with Rick. Niot a hood episode for her, but she has a big influence on her dad, that I love.
    5. I like the story part of this episode, but not the events. I have watched it many times. I always notice little things, the slight hand hold between Rick and Shane as he dies, the steam rising from his warm blood, too real. I've noticed before, but I'll say how Daryl immediately call bullshit on Shane's story. Haha, good. He (Daryl) and Glenn are a good team, in the present TWD world, that is very poignant,as well as, significant. It's almost more than I can stand. I noticed that Carol does not want them going out after Randall. She was frantic.

    Now that he is gone, I hope I have not offended anyone with my strange attachment to Shane. I can't rexplain it. Maybe it's the name...that movie I mentioned is a huge deal for people my age and older, I mean a HUGE deal. I used to think it was because he, the character, reminded me of someone I know. And, then there's the fact that I think Jon Berenthal is fine and sexy and gorgeous, but that's an aside, I guess? But, he is gone and it is whatt it is/was in the story. I will just accept it and move on, until the next time I don't/can't, lol. I need some serious help.

    Haven't read through everyone's posts....told ya, I was caught up in my feelings. Looking forward to hearing what those who are not codependent think, lol.
     
  7. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I wish I knew how to pull out parts of the posts, sorry. Not taking issue with your points, actually in agreement/understand your points. What Shane tells Rick on the little hill: " You got a broken woman. You got a weak boy.." Both digs/taunts, agreed. Saying that to Rick, was a way to undermine his psyche at a critical moment, really deliberate, really calculated, really mean, and I usually try to defend Shane. You are right, Shane's taunt did not rattle Rick, but it did hurt him. Shane was undone by the undoing of the world. Maybe that's why I feel empathetic toward Shane, I wouldn't last long, either. Going to your point about Shane not surviving long in the ZA, Shane admitted as much to Rick, saying it was Lori and Carl who kept him alive, not the other way round. I think that was one of only a few true things he ever said.
     
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  8. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    I feel like we've been disagreeing a lot in these threads (hopefully not in a bad way!), but I was really looking forward to your thoughts on this episode! I agree with you so much about the tragedy of Rick and Shane's friendship. I bet if you'd asked them six months before this episode if there was anything that could tear them apart, they would have said it was impossible :(
     
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  9. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Seconded! It's always great to get another point of view. Especially the thoughts about Shane from someone who really loves him, and how that difficult scene was shot.

    To that end @Katbird I hope you won't mind if I ask this: Don't you think it makes more sense to interpret Lori's behaviour as that she doesn't know what effect her words have not just on Shane, but on most people she talks to? She might have her moments, but I think this difference between their communication styles might be one of the keys to Lori and Rick's pre-ZA marital trouble. Rick gets people-- right in the moment --no words needed. But Lori doesn't, or why else would she need Rick to "talk" more? Are we to believe he was hostile and/or giving his wife and child the cold shoulder? I doubt that very much. Contrast that with Rick and Michonne, who are good people readers, both separately and together. They can communicate with looks precisely because of this skill they happen to share. (If you consider her inability to read her husband's mood without him saying anything about it, I think it also makes sense why she would keep verbally "supporting" him and not realize that he could easily tell she didn't mean it and that it might be just as hurtful to him as if she told the truth.)

    I 100% agree Lori shouldn't have said those things to Shane, but only because she should simply know better than to talk like that with someone who is (or was recently) infatuated with you. (Again, I'm astounded she didn't at least have a friend or her husband around!) But based on early S3, I'm sure she only realized what effect she had on Shane in retrospect.
     
  10. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    Oh, man I was trying to find the words to describe Rick and Lori's marital problems, but you laid it out here perfectly.
     
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  11. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Hearing the opinions of others is refreshing and gives a different perspective to consider, keeps things interesting. I don't mind the question at all.
    It is clear that Lori had no idea who she was married to, what kind of man Rick was, before the turn. The world ending just made the stakes of that issue higher and more glaring. She doesn't really see him. You have a good point about that being a part of her inability to go beneath the surface, seeing only what seems to be not what actually is. I comp!etely agree with your assessment of Rick and Lori's communication/marital issues. I was going to comment about her lack of sincerity in another episode, but didn't want to get started with that. She has a hard time being honest with Rick, with herself. The appearance is what concerns her. That's why the need to try to act as if nothing has changed, the world, them, their life, all of it. Just act as if things are okay, good, and things will be okay, good.

    Now, my main issue with her continuing to give Shane these breadcrumbs, to me, anyway, is Lori must be aware of how different, as men, the two are. She keeps pointing it out. (Is that to convince herself that Rick's qualities are superior to Shane's?). Let me explain. Lori knows that Shane is opposite to Rick in sensibilities, personality, and feelings, she must know. Shane is impulsive, Rick is thoughtful. Shane is reactive, Rick is proactive. Shane has bravado and boldness, Rick is quiet and unassuming. What makes me think she knows, on some level, what affect she has on Shane is the fact that she has seen/knows how Shane handles trouble, things going wrong. He is a black and white kinda guy, no grey for him. Rick is considered in his decision-making style, he doesn't just do the easy thing. (At this point, that is.) The three of them have known each other a long time. I think as a given, Lori would understand that Shane would react in some way to what she said, and she fully knows Shane does not have a neutral, so said reaction would be very Shane-like. I think that was what was appealing to her about Shane, he was easy to figure out. No poet was living inside Shane, he had some wounds, his boundaries troubles, but he was not inclined to be contemplative like Rick. And, Rick being that type is what drew Shane to Rick but is what Lori found/made her so uncomfortable. I think it was a part of the male/female dynamic. Rick was a touchstone for them both, Shane saw a man, a strong man, who moved in the realm of introspection and things not seen, he was impressed, to say the least. Men don't often value that in other men. That's why it was more about being Rick, than having what was Rick's. I think Lori would rather just have a guy who she could make do cartwheels just 'cause she said "hey" and was happy with sex and not intimacy, real intimacy. And oh, yes, the beauty of Rick and Michonne, speaking volumes without words, intimacy to the tenth power. I hope I stayed somewhat on topic. I just go on and on. Just my off-beat way of seeing things, I could be way, way off.

    Addendum: Your observation about Lori not realizing the import/impact of what words she chooses...this, when she casually tells Rick his first night back that Carl will not wake up as they have sex. An example of what you mean? That is a very revealing statement--she just didn't realize what she was saying and to whom. There are others, but that one is glaring. I can see her being oblivious, or maybe not caring She was thinking no one knew she was having sex with Shane, sooo... I have trouble accepting she wouldn't be aware that she was on a razor's edge in a dozen different ways. Maybe because I would never do what she did, unless, unless I was all ready feeling some type of way about Shane and didn't want to admit it. And that"s what I think was the case, Shane was all about raw emotion, he would have never misread that, no way. There is so much to think about with the three of them. If I were good at fan fiction, I would sort out their relationship pre-ZA, lol. I could get some peace of mind, lol! Maybe ☺
     
    #11 Katbird, Aug 13, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2016
  12. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    @SevenStars I'm watching BA now - we're getting some serious rain after the smothering heat and humidity here in Toronto, so I've had a few outages which has interrupted my watch. I will be posting my review soon, but wanted to let you know that I'm good to go for a double watch live tomorrow and I've blocked off my day for it so whenever you want to start is fine with me.
     
  13. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    This Episode is co-written by Evan Reilly and Glen Mazzara. Evan came on under GM and left after Season 3, he also wrote Nebraska and Prey was the last episode he wrote in Season 3. I love Evan Reilly's writing and would trade Angela Kang for him in a minute.

    There were a lot of issues with GM as a showrunner and I'll get into that more in Season 3, but I've heard a few fans comment that Richonne was his idea/baby and that he was focused on writing for minority characters, but quite frankly I did not see that. As a showrunner he had a great opportunity to write for two of the originals who were also minirities, Glen & T Dog, but he didn't. The fact that even the most casual viewer commented on this episode as the most lines TDog has speaks volumes as to the little focus he received. It was only when TDog dies that we learn anything about him, and still not very much. He flushed out most of the characters with back stories but not TDog, very frustrating. To the questions.


    1.What did you take away from Lori and Shane conversation ?
    Wow, where to start LOL. This for me is the defining moment where Lori's "apology/confession" is the Green Light for Shane to believe "yes, I still have a chance". When I first watched the scene with Shane's conversation with Rick by the truck, overheard by Lori and Hershel, I was a little sad that their friendship was irrevocably fractured with Rick's decision to use Daryl as his "wing man" as Shane said. But when Lori turns and looks at Shane after Rick walked way I thought, "oh shit, just leave it alone, don't try to fix them you'll only screw it up". Low and behold she does worse. Now I believe Lori was feeling a lot of her own guilt. And it is that selfish guilt that makes her approach Shane. Remember, less than maybe a week before Shane confessed that he loved her and thought she loved him, she KNEW he was "dangerous" as she told Rick, and she knew and warned Rick that she thought Shane would kill for her, actually using those words. Her husband and Shane go out, both come back obviously having fought the other, and she believes this "dangerous" unpredictable man is what? Going to go back to being Rick's BFF if she says she's sorry? Now if she just stopped at the "I'm sorry and Thank You" I could believe that she didn't play a part in what occurs next, but what comes out of her mouth to Shane was like the biggest WTF moment that IMO made the majority of fans believe she pushed Shane to do the unthinkable.

    Remember Shane was pissed at Rick and maybe feeling slighted about Rick going out with Daryl, but he was dealing with it somewhat and pounding out his frustrations on building the lookout minding his own business. The question I ask is whether Shane would have still killed Randall and try to kill Rick if she had just not said a damn thing. I believe he would not have. Shane was unstable for sure and would have eventually challenged Rick but I don't think it would have occurred at that point.


    I would go so far as to say I think that if Lori had stood firm and kept Shane at arms length, him and Rick may have been able to find their way back to some sort of friendship.

    The minute she utters the words "I don't even know whose baby this is" the look on Shane's face changes, THEN when she admits the feelings weren't one-sided, practically admitting that what he had said to her in the episode Nebraska was true, Shane's eyes and his face with that slack-jawed intense bordering on insane look appears. It's the same look he had when he insisted he loved her and she reciprocated it in Nebraska, and its that same look he has on his face as he's staring at Randall in the barn - it's the "Shane has snapped look" as I like to call it. IMO while the ultimate blame for trying to kill Rick is on Shane, Lori loaded the gun.


    2. Do you think Shane would have change after the way Rick talked to him, if Rick hadn’t kill him ?
    No. Shane's goad to Rick to shoot him was because he knew Rick wouldn't, he just wanted to prove that particular point. But defenseless or not, Shane was intent on killing Rick that night and they both knew it.
    3. What do you think of the way Rick reacted when he saw Carl holding the gun ?
    Guilt. Rick thought his son would actually kill him because of Shane. Rick must have felt like he was watching his own worst nightmare with his son possibly seeing him as a cold blooded murderer, since I think Rick believed that Carl had possibly seen him kill Shane.
    4.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?
    The writing for Andrea was tons better, for Lori and Maggie, ummmm no!
    5. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?
    I realized by the look on Rick's face that he knew as soon as Shane explained what happened that he was lying. He knew that Shane was up to something and the minute Daryl talks about how Randall could have gotten the drop on Shane Rick has this focused look, it's heartbreaking when he realized Shane's intent and allows him to lead him on. Amazing acting by JB and AL and amazing direction by Guy Ferlan.
     
  14. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    Exactly. I've been thinking this myself, and I'm not sure where this praise comes from? Is it because Mazzara said he likes diversity in the writing room? If so, I think that's wonderful, but what actually happens in the show still leaves a lot to be desired. I actually think Mazzara and Gimple are comparable but on different spectrum. With Mazzara, there was a hyper awareness of race while with Gimple there was more of a "color blind" approach (which can be tricky, but I think it actually worked in Gimple's favor since this is later into the ZA where a lot of social constructs begins to breakdown. However, that can lead to the problem of not being aware that you killed three black men all in the same season). I'll save more of this discussion later on and see if my opinion changes.
    I said earlier that maybe Shane and Rick could have worked together or Shane would have left. Assuming the latter never came to pass and let's go as far as to say Shane and Lori never shared that conversation, I don't think Rick and Shane would ever have worked back to a friendship even if Lori kept Shane at bay. Things would be much of the same as they were. Shane confided in Andrea earlier that maybe they would need to do something if everyone decided to spare Randall. So he still had the idea of possibly killing Randall. Shane would continue to butt heads with Rick in regards to big decisions. And I think the conflict between the two would only be exacerbated once Judith was born.

    I know Lori could have handled the Shane situation better, but I do think no matter what she did, Shane was a bomb ready to go off. S1 she kept a distance from him, and S2 she tried talking with him (poorly).

    I like the comparison that someone else made in another thread that Lori's words worked like a catalyst for a reaction. She sped up a spontaneous reaction that I believe was always going to occur. Should Lori have known better? Yes. But did she know better? No. I think if she continued to keep her distance and never said those words, then the audience could forgive her. But because it's her words that spurs Shane into action, it muddies the situation a bit.