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Poll TWD Rewatch Club: Judge,Jury,Executioner 2X11

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by SevenStars, Aug 6, 2016.

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What Grade would you give episode 2x10 ?

This poll will close on Sep 6, 2019 at 11:49 PM.
  1. A

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. B

    4 vote(s)
    100.0%
  3. C

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Hello again my good friends, nice to see you once again:flirt::rickgrin:


    Anyway, let me stupid being and just post the questions:

    1. Do you think Dale was right to fight the way he did to save Randall?

    2.Why do you think the writers made a point to have the walker that Carl was playing with be the one that kills Dale?

    3. Which character surprises you on the side they landed in regard to killing Randall or not ?

    4.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?

    5. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?

    @Sasha's Living Room @lovingdead @Katbird @Flower1petals @Caribbeanqueen11 @MrsG@chaundee @Gooey Goobert @Canuckgirl @Jetamors
    @TexasZAgal
     
  2. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    1. Do you think Dale was right to fight the way he did to save Randall?
    I've criticized Dale a lot in the past but I'm with him 100% on this one. He said all the reasons why in the show. What a shame how he had to go. Would've been a lot better imo if he lived another ep or two to follow Shane into the woods and then Shane kills him after Randall. That would have been an interesting twist, and a midway-step for Shane between murdering a stranger who may or may not have been a threat (personally I believe Randall was truthful though) and murdering his best friend.

    2.Why do you think the writers made a point to have the walker that Carl was playing with be the one that kills Dale?
    Character development for Carl. In S3 Carl references this moment along with others, when Rick confronts him about killing one of the governor's young soldiers.

    3. Which character surprises you on the side they landed in regard to killing Randall or not ?

    Lori didn't believe either Shane or Rick was right; she simply chose not to contradict them. In the end, her keeping silent effectively made her the same as everyone else though. Everyone else I flat out expected to support the decision. I don't like being as jaded as I am about what groupthink is capable of making people do, but well, I am, and none of them surprised me. I was almost surprised at Glenn until he supported killing Randall himself. Then I was like yup, figures.

    The one actually surprising thing to me was Andrea actually changing her mind to support Dale all of a sudden. I guess Shane's talk of capturing and/or killing off Rick and Hershel must have woke her up pretty damn fast! She was still standing next to Shane in the room but suddenly she wasn't his virtual sock puppet anymore.

    4.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?
    There was a moment that bothered me, but now I don't remember what it was. Probably something with Lori again. Overall it mostly seemed back to "usual" though.

    5. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?
    Memory lapse again. I probably noticed something but this time I don't even remember what. I wish I could post right after I watch the ep but it never works out for me that way for some reason.

    I wanted to cry when Hershel was handing the watch over to Glenn. That didn't happen the first time. :crydaryl:
     
  3. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    1. Do you think Dale was right to fight the way he did to save Randall?

    Yes. And I think this could only be brought up early in the seasons when it’s still relatively new to kill the living. I also agreed that Dale was right in trying to involve the whole group in deciding Randall’s fate instead of leaving it up to just Rick (even though most of the group members would have been perfectly content with the Rick making the hard decisions).

    This is when I liked Dale best. While I do agree that more weight should be brought into making a decision of ending a person’s life, I don’t agree with the idea that Randall could become a member of their group. I do think Randall would have been a threat, and if he wasn’t before, he would be after that ordeal. He knows there are members of this group that want him dead, and the first chance he gets at an escape, he’ll run back to his group. When he told Daryl that story, I got the impression that he wasn’t an innocent bystander but an actual participant in the rape of those girls. Then when he’s trying to talk Carl into helping him, he talks about how he’ll lead him to his group and how his group will keep them all safe.

    I maybe would have voted to keep him as a prisoner, locked in the barn. However, I don’t think that would have worked on the farm where there’s little resources and people than, say, Alexandria where they’ve built a community and are on their way to restarting civilization.

    2.Why do you think the writers made a point to have the walker that Carl was playing with be the one that kills Dale?

    A bit of angst and a formative experience for Carl. He ran away scared when he thinks he should have been able to put the walker down, and because he didn’t that cost him a life.

    I do think it would have been better if say that walker was part of the herd and Dale was a casualty of that instead of an isolated attack. From my memory, the only people that died from the herd was Patricia and Jimmy and no one from Rick’s group. And they could keep the Carl development spring board intact by having Carl witness that it was the same walker that he didn’t kill before.

    That said, I still like the idea of Shane killing Dale instead since I think the story was working its way up there.

    3. Which character surprises you on the side they landed in regard to killing Randall or not ?

    I was surprised at Glenn until I realized he was at the bar and fought those men. He’s seen what they’re like and is aware of the threat. I believe Dale was right in thinking Glenn was scared and that’s what led him to agree with the others. We know after Dale’s death, Glenn chides himself for disappointing him.

    I was taken back by Andrea’s switch to the other side, but I was happy at that.

    4.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?

    There wasn’t much of a difference this episode. It was on par with most of the other episodes this season.

    5. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?

    I have no idea why Randall decided it would be a good idea to share the story of his group members raping those girls. Obviously, he was trying to differentiate himself from some of the members, but he did a piss poor job, and it seems pretty clear to me he wasn’t innocent, so why bring up that story that could very easily paint him in a bad light? He couldn’t dig around for some other story or maybe make something up?

    One thing I noticed is whenever Rick asks Lori for her opinion, she always agrees with him, but not with her own opinion. For example, in this episode when she was asked about killing Randall by Rick, she doesn’t say, “I think it’s best if we put an end to the guy.” But instead she says, “I agree with what you think is best”. Hell even when she disagrees, she ends it by saying she supports his decision. The one distinct time I remember Lori voicing her opinion and actually disagreeing with Rick (at first) was in regards to the baby. The difference is, the baby affects her while the other decisions, she’d rather distance herself and have Rick lead.

    I loved how Rick was giving Carl his motto, “Don’t talk. Think.” And Carl retorts back with, “mom always wants you to talk more”. Carl, you sassy little shit. :lol:

    I forgot Glenn was from Michigan. Fun fact, SY is too.

    I was close to rolling my eyes at the, “no man is good for your little girl” but then Hershel added, “until one is”. That was absolutely adorable. My heart swelled when Hershel passed the watch to Glenn.
     
  4. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    You guys swayed me a bit on Rick going back for Shane (but I still think Rick's dark side was always there all along, like he says in S3). The convo about that in S3 with Hershel (I think) and the convos with Shane from the last ep we just watched have always made a huge impression on my understanding of the intricacies of Rick's moral fibre. Now @Gooey Goobert has swayed me on Randall. That's a good point about how weird it is that he'd tell a story about some girls being raped, even if he didn't do it himself. If he didn't participate in it (and didn't try to stop it), he was certainly fascinated by it and/or okay with it.
     
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  5. Canuckgirl

    Canuckgirl Ricktator

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    1. Do you think Dale was right to fight the way he did to save Randall? Yes and no. He was trying to save the group's soul, and he was right to do so, but Randall and his crew were bad people and would have come back to raid the farm, if they had let him loose. Sometimes, I understand the need of a moral compass, but this kind of thinking in this new world is dangerous

    2.Why do you think the writers made a point to have the walker that Carl was playing with be the one that kills Dale? Lol, that was when I want to spank Carl. Dale's death was horrendous and to know it was because of Carl made it worst. The adults weren't supervising the only child in the group, leading to the moral compass getting ripped apart.

    3. Which character surprises you on the side they landed in regard to killing Randall or not ? Glenn, but it showed how much of a follower he was (and still is)

    4.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ? Maggie is one of the best written female before Michonne's appearance. Andrea still irritated me, along with Lori

    5. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ? Not much
     
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  6. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    Yeah, like others, I think it was the right thing. Like he said, you can't just decide to kill someone based on a five minute conversation. Though the part I thought was odd was that Andrea mentions putting him in chains and having him do labor as an obviously bad choice... but it's not totally obvious to me why it wouldn't be workable. They could have at least discussed it. (Though then again, I'm not sure if I would have wanted a slavery debate on top of the killing debate...)

    Carl's storylines are often meant to show what it's like for a child growing up in the apocalypse, and this is one part of it: he thinks it's cool to play with a walker, when it gets free he runs away and even leaves his gun there, and he never thinks through the consequences of having a walker so close without telling anyone. He's just a kid being a kid, but in the ZA, that can have some pretty drastic consequences.

    I'm not sure I was really surprised by anyone, besides maybe Andrea changing her mind. Poor Dale :( Hershel's response was especially interesting to me; I think that since the barn was opened, his confidence in his own judgment and leadership has really been shaken. A few episodes ago, he would have been telling everyone else what to do with Randall; now, he's happy to make him someone else's problem.

    It seemed about the same as usual to me.

    Female zombie kill count update: and now we have a second episode in a row in which no woman kills a zombie.

    I was another one who didn't really pay much attention to the pocket-watch scene the first time, but of course now I'm all ;___;

    Also more fodder for my anti-Shane train: he likes to think of himself as the one who makes the hard choices--but Rick is the first one to put Dale out of his misery, and when he can't do it, Daryl is the one who takes the gun. Shane is just standing in the background looking like he hopes no one calls on him.

    One thing I kind of disliked was in Randall's conversation with Carl, where he says that he'll take Carl's parents back to his group. To me, the Randall question was totally ambiguous before that point, but that line tipped me over into the "Randall is probably a bad guy" camp. I think it would have been better not to give the viewer such a strong indication either way. (Though... actually I don't remember what happens with him after this, so maybe he was a good guy after all! I'll find out on Wednesday XD )

    Edit: oh, and one other thing I notice on rewatch: parallels between Randall and Daryl temporarily joining a crappy group of dudes in S4. If someone had captured him then, he would have been telling a similar story.
     
  7. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    I was surprised at this too. I would have expected Shane to grab the gun from Rick's hand and end it, but that didn't happen. I guess he's not as equipped to handle all the tough decisions. I did like Daryl stepping up and taking that burden instead when Rick falters.
     
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  8. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    On its face this is a good episode, but aside from the ending, I had some issues with it. This episode was written by Angela Kang, who I've said IMO is one of, if not the weakest writer on the show. I usually take a real deep breath as soon as I see her on the credits as the writer. This was the 1st episode of the show that GN sits in the Directirs chair and he does do an amazing job with it.

    1. Do you think Dale was right to fight the way he did to save Randall? I agreed with Dale 100%. As annoying as Dale can be at times, to take a young man's life because he may be a threat is not the way. If they did this so early on then one wonders if they would have turned out any better than The Governor or Negan. In this moment, I believe their actions and decisions are very telling about the kind of people they'd become without the guidance and control that Rick provides.

    I would have kept him on the farm as a prisoner, perhaps do a small recon where his people were situated to see if they were still camped there. It appears based on Dave and Tony's conversation in the Bar that they were living out of their car. Whether they kill Randall or not, there is no guarantee the group would not eventually find the farm in their quest for shelter, especially since they were made aware there were people in the town that killed a few of their own.

    2.Why do you think the writers made a point to have the walker that Carl was playing with be the one that kills Dale? This is the beginning
    of a theme that resonates over the next few season. The choices that you make will impact you one way or another. Carl does a call back to this first choice when they are first attacked by the Governor in his words to Rick that by not acting and destroying a threat when you are first faced with it, then in this world you risk that threat returning and taking someone you love. I find it interesting that in this episode the group struggles with eliminating a threat that may come back to cause future issues, and even knowing it may cost them they ultimately show mercy. Meanwhile Carl makes the same decision and his decision (whether knowingly or not) causes them to lose a loved one.

    3. Which character surprises you on the side they landed in regard to killing Randall or not ? At first I was pissed at Carol's attitude at having someone give her an opportunity to have a say considering her choices had previously always been taken from her. I do give her a free pass however as she still views everything through the lense of a victim. I was surprised and pissed at Hershel taking the cowards way out and leaving the decision to Rick. What happened to his 'my farm, my rules' mentality, or does that go out the window when the choices are too hard?

    4.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ? It's as if each move forward is followed by a step backward. Andrea continues to grow, she makes her opinions known and Dale makes it clear her opinion is valued. The other women, like Carol, appear to want the men to "take charge" and make the decision for them. Lori is obviously only agreeing with the decision because Shane and Rick finally agree on something, and keeping the peace between them is apprently more important than voicing her opinion even if it may cost a man his life. Even when Rick asks for her opinion as to whether the decision is the right one, she can't (or won't) take a stand.

    5. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ? When Shane speaks to Andrea about the possibility of a takeover I'm surprised that she still had her blinders on as to his motivations and the fact that he is walking a razors edge. Daryl's statement about the group being broken is so very true. Each of them see the obvious signs but choose to ignore them.

    I did not like the way Daryl delivered his lines when he was interrogating Randall. Randall's confession made absolutely no sense. If I'm trying to get my captors to believe I'm not a threat I sure as hell wouldn't share a story about a group of us assaulting innocent girls... It was like watching a SNL parody on what not to say when taken hostage.

    BEHIND THE SCENES: This episode was originally written so that
    Dale would come across Jimmy who had been attacked by a walker. Jeff DeMunn who was upset at the firing of FD asked to be let out of his contract, so they re-wrote the episode killing off Dale instead. The unconfirmed rumour is that the actor changed his mind and asked to stay a few more episodes but given the costs of having to do re-writes and re-shoots GM did not permit the request.




     
  9. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    I wanted to add that in my first watch I was touched by Hershel giving Glen the watch. On this re-watch I just got very sad.

    Sorry to be the Debbie Downer, but I thought it was a little soon for Hershel to know that Glen is the "right guy" for Maggie. Other than Glen going to the Bar with Rick to get Hershel, I'm not sure that Glen did anything to prove this to Hershel, I can see him giving it to him after the farm is lost and he brings Maggie back. I know he's aware that Glen saved her in the pharmacy and perhaps he sees how they are with one another, so maybe a scene with Hershel witnessing the tenderness between them would have been a good lead up. Without the proper context the gesture seems random IMO.
     
  10. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    See, someone like Jimmy would work for that death scene, and it would still give Carl the development he gets. Dale was too big of a character to go out by an unceremonious walker attack. Now, I wonder what their original plan was for Dale. Would he have lived all the way up to his comic death or would he have died some point earlier? I still think the story was heavily leaning towards Shane killing Dale.
     
  11. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    I didn't end up putting it in my post, but I had it in my notes: how awkward would it have been if Hershel had given that big speech and given the watch, but Glenn and Maggie were still just casual :lol:

    Like, I don't think it's not bad writing, but at the same time, I think deaths like this helped a lot with making the early seasons feel very precarious, in a good way; it felt like almost anyone really could die, in any episode, and without too much regard for their own personal arc. The writing smooths out as the survivors get better at killing zombies (with a few exceptions, like Tyreese's idiotic death), which was an entirely unintended progression, but I think it actually kinda works; regardless of your feelings on the S6 cliffhanger, it makes sense that it now takes a season finale-level threat to take out any of the core group.
     
  12. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    This is a hard episode for me, personally; hard to watch. As a fan, I have always said, not only would I not make it in the ZA, it would break me before I went. I admit it, I could not handle it...I'd like to think I wouldn't give up, but I think I'd give out, as we say in the country. With that being said, this episode, for me, is asking what would become of people in those circumstances. It is a hard look at what choices have to be made and what people will accept to survive.
    The way they all just fall silent when Rick presents the last chance for an alternative, finding another option, speaking up and out, is revealing. It is raw and jagged stuff. I don't say this easily, I understand why they didn't reject Rick's decision. Why they didn't support, except Andrea, Dale's argument. I'm a big, bad liberal, but I understand, it hurts my feelings, but I understand. When he (Dale) asks: "Isn't anyone going to stand with me?", I get a sinking feeling in my tummy at the non-response, every time. He has to get to the point of tears and is wringing his hat in his hands before just one person, Andrea, will even concede they need to try to think of another way--really sad to me.
    I am resisting the urge to comment on Shane in this episode. I'll just say, he is a complicated mess of a character/person. Hats off to Jon Berenthal.
    Now I can gush aout Rick and Daryl, instead of Rick and Shane, lol. I will be forever grateful for Daryl doing that terrible thing for Rick. I love Daryl and liked him from the start...I think this must be where my undying support of Rick and Daryl's friendship began. Daryl did Rick a solid, and I am glad. Poor Rick. The situation with Carl via the situation with Randall, then Dale, what a heavy burden for him. Good grief, Daryl takes Rick as his Captain with that act. Daryl reads people so well, Rick needed him to do that, and he shared the burden with him. (It's hard to type through tears, lol.) Not even Shane was able to do it, maybe he froze or just wanted to make poor Dale suffer...gee, I hope not. I am also so grateful for Dale vouching for Daryl's status as a "decent man". A heart wrenching scene as Dale lifts his head to the muzzle of Rick's gun, then, " Sorry, brother." Oh, my heart.

    1. Yes, I do. I'm glad one of ten people spoke up for Randall. Even if it was not the best person to defend, someone had to be his advocate. The world is not how it was, but Dale was right to try to remind them that life is worth defending, literally and philosophically. As I already said, it was hard to see them all fall silent.
    2. I don't know, exactly. I think, maybe to show that inaction is action, both for good and bad. Or, maybe, indecision will come back to haunt you. Maybe so the audience sees that there is no margin for error in the ZA. Playing around with "death" is a bad idea and the way things are is not child's play. That was an eye opener for Carl. I guess we know it really had an affect on him, made him file away in mind, "do not take risks".
    3.Glenn, but not really. It is the smartest move and Glenn is smart. But, he was new to that set of issues with Maggie as a concern. He is more risk adverse. He probably agrees with Dale's arguments, and taking a chance to bring someone in could have a big pay off, people are a big asset. He just has Maggie to think about now and he is not willing to take the chance. I was a very sympathetic to Carol about not wanting to decide, but no one could take the easy way out like Dale said. It was Hershel choice that showed the audience that the ZA has different rules and people are different, too.
    4. More of the steady, but slow, improvement. Andrea did tell Shane to chill with the coupe attempt and drew on him. I don't think she would have shot, but she did draw. And, Maggie has definitely become a partner/pair with Glenn. He doesn't run toward the screaming until she tells him to. She really has him reined in, no more going down wells after walkers for him. She is a very strong woman.
    5. I noticed that the group is settling in to a hierarchy and there is no more tug of war about who is in charge, at least openly. Andrea just said it: "Rick is the leader of this group"; Hershel: " I leave it with Rick." I hate the beating, I didn't like Shane beating Ed and the beating Daryl gives Randall, awful. At least with Rick and Shane, it was a fight not a beating. The threat of rape is always latent in this story. It is tip-toed around all the time. Daryl told the others that about the possibility of that and no more discussion, just like the words of Tony(?)...Rick was done when he said that in the bar. I won't mention the other times that was drifting around in the story

    Haven't had a chance to read everyone's thoughts yet. Really anxious to hear what y'all think about the Randall situation. It always makes me think, what if? What would I say, do? It is a sobering, kinda scary, too, thought.
     
  13. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Your point about Randall telling Daryl about the rape of the girls, I posted in a thread about worst decisions made by characters....this was one of two for me, as the dumbest thing that you could do. Why did he tell Daryl that story? He was getting his a** beat by a guy trying to get information to protect his people, not smart to tell said guy your road dogs did such things. I don't get why he told him...trying to guess Daryl was that kinda guy? Then trying to switch up/clean it up when Daryl turns around with that look on his face--uh, oh, big mistake. Him (Randall) telling that for whatever reason was just strange and really dumb.