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Poll TWD Rewatch Club: Say the word 3x05

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by SevenStars, Sep 4, 2016.

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What grade would you give episode 3x04 ?

This poll will close on Oct 4, 2019 at 3:33 PM.
  1. A

    3 vote(s)
    60.0%
  2. B

    2 vote(s)
    40.0%
  3. C

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Hi, everyone

    Happy Labor Day to those who are celebrating it. I hope everyone is having a great weekend. So far this weekend is better than my last weekend. This episode was the first episode that made me want to hate Rick, I will explain why in my post later.

    Anyway here are the questions for this episode:

    1.Do you think it was a father’s love that made the Governor keep his daughter alive or insantiy ?

    2. Who do you think was right in Andrea/Governor’s argument about gladiator fight ?

    3.How did you feel about Rick’s reaction to Lori’s death ?

    4. What did you think of the writing for the women ?

    5. What did you notice that was different in this episode from the last time you watched it ?
     
  2. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    I was watching for whether Gov would get all twitchy again when he lied, but he told Michonne she "fit in" without the slightest wobble (which we have already seen for ourselves is not the case), even though later the same episode he tells Andrea she's scaring people.

    On the Andrea/Michonne conflict:
    I can still see both sides. Another reason Michonne didn't push her case (aside from lacking hard evidence) would be that she thought she didn't have to-- Andrea agreed to make their stay temporary at first. It's only when they're literally about to leave that she decides she's going to stay. Meanwhile Andrea's points about being tired and the fact they apparently discussed finding a "refuge" in the past are still good ones. It's just too bad she didn't realize this wasn't it!

    As I see it, from his perspective, it was. Philip Blake was operating on the idea that Milton's ideas about walkers were true. As long as there was a hope she was "alive" in some way, he wasn't going to give up on her. Funny thing is I also believe he was intelligent enough to realize on his own that there was no way she was alive. He just didn't want to see it.

    But I think that the Governor didn't know how to grieve (or deal with most negative emotions in general). He was genuinely devastated that he lost his daughter, but instead of accepting the reality of it all and working his way through the pain with a natural grieving process... he always, always sought to control things in hopes to gain some sort of mastery over the source of his pain. Especially people, but also the walkers (as we see this episode), the land, you name it. Personally, I believe that everything he does, from the immaculate garden in his backyard (that's gotta take a lot of water) to supporting Milton's naive ideas about walkers still having a memory of being alive to shooting all his people at the end of S3 is all about his inability to face his personal horrors and demons (i.e. work his way through natural processes of grief and regret) leading him to attempt to "control" them away. Like DG said, he needs to "lead" in order to feel like a man and his style of "leadership" is to be a control freak.

    No question for me that would be Andrea. Just another way for the Gov to control people (along with his propaganda speeches).

    Not pleased. I could understand him wanting to go off and kill the walkers but he didn't even have a good look at Judith first, let alone think of the top priority issue: getting her FOOD since she has no mother. Sort of gave me Trainspotting flashbacks. Also I don't get the part where he doesn't even seem to recognize Glenn, and appears like he might try to hurt him. I'm starting to get the feeling nobody in the ZA (that lives that long) is a shrink because the writers don't know how to write one well.

    I like that Maggie insisted on doing the run with Daryl, but I'm still waiting on some depth for Michonne at this point in the story.

    In the past I didn't fully get Michonne's line about how "nobody leaves this place" and now I think I do. I used to think she was only talking about people who want to leave. But actually what she really meant is that nobody (that she's seen) has a habit of going in and out of their walls. It's hermetically sealed. Kind of like Alexandria was, but if you were looking, there were enough signs to tell it wasn't so much because of the people's naivete as it was the leader's dictate. As a leader, Rick has learned that the best chance of protecting as many group members as possible is to strengthen them all as far as possible. Deanna
    failed to do that because she mistakenly didn't believe it necessary. The Gov didn't do it because he wanted people to be dependent on him. I honestly think Shane had a bit of the Gov in him too, wanting Lori and Carl to depend on him (sorry Katbird!).
     
    #2 Sasha's Living Room, Sep 4, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  3. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    Both, I think? Like the underlying motive was pure (love for his daughter and hope that Milton could create a cure), but as we can see from his Notebook of Crazy, he also wasn't thinking clearly about it.

    Definitely Andrea. And I like that the show keeps to that too--we never see good guys minimizing walkers or treating them like a joke.

    Poor guy :(

    What I like is that even though Rick has totally, completely lost it, the things he did before are what help to keep his family and the group safe. Daryl takes charge very quickly, correctly prioritizing the kids over Rick, and everyone else in the group works to keep things functional. It's not good that Rick is falling apart, but it's good that he's created a space where one person can fall apart like this and they won't all die.

    I've loved how they're writing Maggie this season--she's very proactive and confident in handling herself. We don't see Carol or much of Beth, though, which is a shame.

    I've mentioned it before but I think the writing for Andrea has improved massively from S2. What I really like about her this season is that she's finally being written as a coherent character. She makes a bad decision this episode, but I could completely understand why she made it. Having said that... come on, girl. You know she was all-in when the Governor said he had walkers caged for reasons he wouldn't give and she just accepted that. The gladiator fights are a big red flag (or, in Andrea's own words, "barbaric", "sick" and "crazy"), but she's already committed to making this thing work.

    Michonne is great as always. One of the things I like most about her is that once she's decided on something, she doesn't hesitate. I think a lot of people would have gone along with Andrea to keep the peace, but she's not willing to wait any longer, and she takes her chance when she gets it.

    Something I don't like (and probably wouldn't have noticed if I wasn't doing the kill count): no female character from Woodbury has had a single line since 3x03.

    Female zombie kill count: Michonne (5)

    So... I know it's word of God that that zombie actually did eat Lori, but my issue with that is that it makes no sense and nothing remotely like that ever happens to anyone else. IMHO, it would make more sense for Rick to be hallucinating it, and I don't think anything in the actual show contradicts that. One thing is the timing: Glenn was actively burying people this episode, and had several hours to recover and bury Lori's body before Rick enters that room. I think there's also something in the next episode that bolsters my theory, but I'll wait to rewatch and see if I'm remembering it correctly.
     
  4. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    Guys I'm so sorry but with my dad's illness and my crazy work stuff I keep falling behind. You guys keep going and I'll catch up by doubling up on episodes when I can.
     
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  5. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    No worries! I hope things look up for you soon, and I'm interested in hearing your thoughts whenever you can give them :)
     
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  6. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    ^^^ Ditto! Take care of you and yours and I'll look forward to hearing from you whenever you can make it.
     
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  7. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I'm like an episode behind, fellow re-watchers. So sorry for bring a slacker.
    I get so caught up in these characters, it hurts me to see them in pain. Is that weird? Watching Rick lose his grip on reality, I had forgotten how awful that was. I was really disappointed in Andrea...I have a question, before I start griping about Andrea, lol: Is the cutting between Michonne and Rick, (which they kinda do before they were a couple), to show this situation is akin to what he experiences with the Shane/Lori situation? It occurred to me that they both experienced a betrayal, very interesting that the editing was used to give the audience that feeling, then the both of them ending the episode alone...it was well done. Anyway, if I was Andrea, I would have listened to Michonne, nothing about that place was right. What was wrong with Michonne getting her sword? Andrea tells the Governor that then fusses at Michonne about it. Andrea must have some idea that Michonne was right to want to be wary of the Governor. The Governor was threatening her, subtlely, but it was a threat. I love the Dixon brothers and I miss Daryl's poncho. I have no doubt that without Daryl, Judith would have died. That group would not have been as strong without him. Glenn was really scared watching Rick walk away, undone like that. It rattled him to see Rick like that. Hershel is a rock...Glenn really looks to him as a dad, Rick and the rest of them, too. I have to admit, in keeping with my ignorance about the comic and such things, I thought the phone was ringing. In my TWD world, before I knew better, the gov't. is operational somewhere, so yeah, I thought the phone rang...duh. (I still hope that, though....about the gov't.)
    1. I honestly don't know. I try to explain the Governor by saying that he was just crazy. But, he is/was a dad and I'm sure he loved Penny, it just makes no sense thinking someone can be a true person after the infection destroys their brain. He seems to love her, but love is putting the person down. Why would he think Milton could come up with a cure and in what time frame. I think he was unstable before the turn and the turn just made him more so.
    2. Andrea is more right than the Governor is?, I think. But, yeah, there was wrestling and boxing preZA, so it is very similar. Andrea has/makes a good point about not letting people think the walkers aren't dangerous. However, she and Michonne had pet walkers, so people need to know that the walkers can be managed...that they don't have to cower in fear. It didn't look good to have people fighting each other, it could cause issues since the people don't know it's staged. I don't see why they don't just play regular sports, baseball, basketball, etc. Those games are still the same. I'm sure there are a bunch of folks who played sports still around. Andrea is thinking of how to put society back together, so the gladiator bouts are not something that helps in that respect.
    3. It tears me apart. He just comes unglued. Lori's death turns Rick. Not like with the infection, but he does turn. He can/does heal, but he will always have that scar. I see him in those scenes, he is beyond reason. I so glad he doesn't hurt Glenn, he could have. I think a lot of his reaction is guilt. Guilt that he didn't kill Andrew, guilt that he couldn't protect her, again, when she needed him, guilt that he wasn't able to make things whole with her, guilt that he ran out of time. Their story continues to be incredibly sad. It is not fun to watch.
    4. Good, for the most part. Maggie is doing a powerful thing for Lori...that is a real girl power moment, her going for the formula four her friend's baby after bringing her baby into the world. (More binding of that group togertogerther.). Michonne had great scenes, letting the Governor know two can play that game, that watching people mess. Good for her. I love when she just goes and gets her katana. She was just like: "Nah, boom! I got my damn sword!". She is a bad mama mama--the baddest chick-- putting down those walkers. That little smile, too good. She was thinking: "Gotta stay sharp. I need the practice." But, Andrea...I'm trying to understand, she wants the life back that she had, but it is so obvious that Woodbury and the Governor is not kosher. It just seems kinda silly for an intelligent woman to lose her mind 'cause of a supposed charming guy. Not buying it.
    5. I noticed that Glenn was beside himself about losing the members of his family. That he was very unsettled by things with Rick. I noticed that Hershel has to be a counter to Rick with Glenn. Hershel held his hand through the fence after he said that about killing the prisoners when they first got to the prison. Daryl was so sweet with baby Judith. The whole episode was a good one in showing us that he is a complicated character. It reminded me of why I am such a huge fan of that character. (I always think about that bottle being nearly full of formula...new babies just barely take a ounce or maybe, two, and they have no refrigeration and limited formula, no wasting in that situation.)
    I am behind on reading the thread and have to watch the next episode. I hope to be all caught up this week. I'm looking forward to Rick and Michonne meeting.
     
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  8. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Nice catch! Rick and Michonne both enduring (repeat) betrayals is another interesting thing they have in common.

    You mean he was threatening Michonne right? I get a general uncomfortable vibe from him in that scene but for some reason I can't for the life of me figure out what that threat was supposed to be, right then and there.

    That poncho's existence in this series was too short lived. It's kind of cute that Maggie inherited it later though.

    My first time, I wasn't sure about the phone ringing until I heard the line Rick was speaking on. I was definitely suspicious from the start that it wasn't real, but didn't know for sure-- probably not until they "guessed" he had a wife. That was when I pretty much knew he was hallucinating.

    I never could quite be sure of which voices were which characters though. Can anyone else tell for sure? Something I missed there the first time was that it was his hallucination of Lori's voice that told him to get his ass back to his children. This is one of the two hallucinations of Lori that I don't mind. (The other one is the plaid-shirted, pregnant Lori that he sees before dropping the plan to deliver Michonne over to the Gov.)

    Love is expressed differently by each person depending on how their personal value system matches up with (what they know of) what the person would have wanted. The Gov and Milton both seemed to honestly believe it was possible that a "trace" of who the walker once was could be left in the walker. Also, in a later ep, Milton says to Andrea that he knew the Gov before he became how we know him now. So he hasn't always been the same (at least outwardly).

    I agree with you he probably had minor issues before the ZA though (and I bet it was lifelong and not just from after his wife died, though that certainly wouldn't help), and they just ran amok once it started. Instead of being able to deal with whatever pain came his way, he tried to "fix" everything with his controlling streak and of course it didn't work. You just can't control everything in life, least of all other people's allegiances. The vicious cycle spins out of control.

    (Incidentally, as the unfortunately slut-shaming stereotype usually goes, a villainous woman controls a man by seducing him. The Gov picked up on Andrea's cues of being attracted to him and used sex to control her. Thanks to the double standard of men being "studs" while women are "sluts," he gets to power trip on that without any shame accruing from it.)

    Yeah, what on earth was wrong with basketball? :lol:

    But if you see the Governor as someone who copes via/is addicted to controlling both people and circumstances, and if you remember that he tells Andrea he likes "the fight," then it makes sense he'd enjoy stuff like this. It's the same kind of crude puppet show as when he forces Maggie to disrobe. He wasn't really even turned on by the topless woman in the room, he was turned on by the power trip.
     
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  9. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    1.Do you think it was a father’s love that made the Governor keep his daughter alive or insantiy ? I would go the insanity route. One reason is Kirkman detailed his background in Rise of The Governor
    and Penny was not his daughter, she was his brother "Phillip's" daughter. He was a weak man, he loved his niece dearly and his weakness caused the deaths of his brother and his niece. His brother was a leader and a little abusive to him, he wanted to be his brother, so when his brother died he took on his name and his personality and his grief over penny made him keep her and she assisted in his psychosis
    .

    Nonetheless, if he truly felt that there was "possibility" that there was something of Penny in there, that she could somehow be returned to who she was, then at the very least he is a cold-blooded murderer who has caused the death of hundreds (of walkers), people who he believes can be returned, just for sport?? I'm sticking with psycho/insane!

    Andrea - I can't really blame, Michonne has not been open with her since they met. From the beginning Andrea has been used to a group and believe she's found safety. After the hell of fighting for her life after the farm fell and living out in the open and on the run constantly, it would be very easy for her, or anyone who has yet to see the worst of humanity in the apocalypse, to be blinded by the "security" Woodbury offers.


    2. Who do you think was right in Andrea/Governor’s argument about gladiator fight ? Andrea, but we see later in her conversation with him that all the things she said was just lip service because apparently that's her kink! As an aside, GM really wanted to trash this character, and he definitely succeeded.

    3.How did you feel about Rick’s reaction to Lori’s death ? I'm in the minority and believe he acted appropriately. He was angry, extremely so and primarily at himself, and had a shit ton of guilt. As we know in the comics he dealt with this guilt and the trauma of Lori's death by speaking to "Lori" on the phone and this continued when they got to ASZ as he took the phone with him and continued to talk to her until he starts sleeping with Jessie, I believe even then he still calls "Lori" until Andrea and him got together.

    4. What did you think of the writing for the women ? I believe the women really start coming into their own. Maggie is strong and assertive and the men, Glen especially, are encouraging in their support. Michonne is well.. Michonne! LOl

    5. What did you notice that was different in this episode from the last time you watched it ? I hadn't noticed that the scene with Rick cutting through those walkers with such ease and with such anger is shown before Michonne cutting through her own walkers at Woodbury in a show of her badassery!

    Also it always bugged me that one walker could eat Lori, bones, cartilage and alll, and her clothes, at least her pants and boots (and likely) her top was off to the side. Walkers are not that meticulous and we've seen walkers eat their prey down to the bone and leave the skeletal. I understand they wanted it to have a greater impact on Rick that there was nothing left of her to even look at or bury other than articles of clothes, thereby giving him no physical means of talking to her "body" to purge some of his grief, but it still bugs me.
     
  10. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    Whoa, I had no idea any of that was in the comic. I guess they probably thought it was too complicated for too little payoff to put into the show, but it's still pretty interesting.

    Ugh yeah, Andrea secretly liking it just seemed so unnecessary!

    You know a lot about the behind-the-scenes stuff; do you think Mazzara was deliberately trying to sabotage her? I've heard that before, but it seems like it could also just be really terrible writing.


    That's a good point about the men not getting weird about it. I'm glad we never got any tedious plotlines about men being in their feelings because a woman is a good fighter or a better fighter than them or whatever.
     
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  11. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Damn. You know, if the writing had been tighter, maybe they could have had some very brief flashbacks about the G's (I like that abbreviation, thanks @Caribbeanqueen11!) brother and such. Not the whole story; just enough to get the picture (kind of like how we see bits and pieces of Morgan tracking Rick in S5). Just a thought. Instead, they kind of hint at it in the same way they do that he's a rapist. Next season he passes all those signs that describe what he has done or would do. He also takes on another name, Brian Harriet (I think). If they were half-brothers with different family names or one was adopted or something, it could have been his real name.
     
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  12. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    @Jetamors the G's backstory wasn't from the comics. RK and Jay Bonansinga have a few TWD novels which included the story of The Governor, but the last 3 books have since branched out to other books. To date they are:

    TWD Rise of the Governor;
    TWD The Road to Woodbury;
    TWD Fall of the Governor;
    TWD Descent;
    TWD Invasion - on my TBR pile; and
    TWD Search and Destroy (coming out in October)

    These books are really well written and pretty scary.
     
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  13. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    Oh wow, I didn't even know about those! Unless one of them is about Rick's brother? I remember hearing something about that, but I had just assumed it was a comic.