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Poll TWD Rewatch Club: The Killer Within 3x04

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by SevenStars, Aug 31, 2016.

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What grade would you give episode 3x04

This poll will close on Oct 1, 2019 at 6:51 PM.
  1. A

    3 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. B

    3 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. C

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Hey guys,

    I just couldn't make this post without adding this clip on it. I think this is one of the most heartbreaking death and scene on this show. I can't wait to read your thoughts on it and the rest of the episode. I tried to make this post earlier because I think it's better when I put it out early but internet trouble and life got in the way of my planing, which I'm sure God was laughing at while I make these plans. I hope He had good a laugh at me and show me some mercy next since I did make Him laugh, :lol::lol:. Also I know I've been missing in actions the in the last couple of posts, I'm sorry for that. I will try to do better from now on since some of the things that have kept me away from this site, especially this activity, is almost over and done with. Hopefully I will have more time to hang out and actually discuss the episodes with you guys because I really miss doing that.

    Here this weeks questions.
    1. What do you think was the point of T-Dog dying ?
    2. Now that Lori is no longer with us, what are your final thoughts on her as a person, mother and wife ?
    3.Do think Maggie should have talked Carl out of killing his own mother?
    4.What did you think about the writing for the women in this episode ?
    5. What did you noticed that you didn't noticed the last time you watched this episode ?

    @Sasha'sLivingRoom @lovingdead @Katbird @Flower1petals @Caribbeanqueen11 @MrsG @chaundee
    @GooeyGoobert @Canuckgirl @Jetamors
    @TexasZAgal
     
  2. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    I've been missing your comments too! Thanks for still giving us good questions to think about, and I'll look forward to you being more active soon :D
    Oh right, we're in the middle of the first big Black Man Die-Off :/ I'm still annoyed--not so much that he died, but that he did nothing but hang out in the background for all of S2 and the first episodes of S3. I'm glad he actually had dialogue and opinions in this episode. I'm still not quite sure how I feel about his death; on the one hand, I'm glad he went out heroically and on a high note. But on the other hand, black person sacrificing themselves for a white person (with white people never doing the reverse) is a trope I'm kind of completely over. I don't think we've seen something like this (with any character combo) happen before in the show, either. But then on the third hand, he was going to die anyway; it's not as if regular unbitten T-Dog gave up his life for Carol. Does that make a difference? And at that point I get annoyed in general and don't want to think about it anymore >.<
    Oh gosh, I feel like I've written so much about her already through these threads. In the end: a lousy wife, but a good mother. She was someone I can empathize with a lot; I don't know that I would have made the same mistakes, but I could see myself making similar ones. I'm glad she got to go out on a high note in this episode; it really showcases her best qualities. I always cry a little at her death scene.
    I think it was something he needed to do, as messed-up as that is. Rick gives us a good look at what happens when there's a lack of closure in the next few episodes.
    In addition to the end of Lori's story (which I thought was handled very well), we have Maggie in a situation she never expected, and she steps up and handles it well. For Carol, it's the flip-side of my T-Dog questions: is she being unrealistically helpless so a black man can sacrifice himself for her, or is it realistic that she still needs help sometimes? And Beth? Well, she was there...

    I liked Andrea and Michonne too. I could understand each woman's perspective, and I didn't think either one was being unreasonable. I do wish Michonne had told Andrea about the bullet holes in the Jeep (?), but I don't think it would have really helped much; it's not solid proof, and the Governor had a ready answer for everything. (I wonder if that's part of the reason why Michonne questions him about it; she knows that Andrea would go to him with the same questions.)

    Something else I was thinking while I was watching that Andrea is sort of in the same place now that Michonne reaches in S5. They can survive out there, sure, but is that all there is? Just making it?

    Rough female zombie kill count: Lori (2), Maggie (2), Carol (2)

    I'm still kind of amazed that they just dropped all of this into the 4th episode of the season. (A mid-mid-season finale?)

    I'm paying a little more attention to the prisoners this time, and man, the look on Oscar's face after shooting Andrew... that was probably the first time he'd ever killed a person, and Andrew was someone he knew so well :(

    Also Richonne parallels (which weren't even planned, I know): Rick's last sight of Lori is a reversed version of the first time he sees Michonne. That was something I hadn't noticed before.
     
  3. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Glad to see you back commenting in the threads, SevenStars. Your absence was noticed!

    1. Was there a point? This had to be a formative moment for Carol (alongside her daughter and Lizzie/Mika), but how often has she referred to this moment since then (if ever)? Also, when they decide to keep the prisoners Oscar and Axel around, a nod to the fact it was what T-Dog wanted (along with Glenn) would have been nice. Honestly I'm more annoyed at how little attention he got both before and after his death than I am that he died at all.

    2. I guess I'd have to say that while I can acknowledge she always meant well, she was also frustrating to watch. I feel for her especially in S3 but though she seemed to have made some progress, she and Rick still weren't ever going to work out. Her mistakes are certainly bigger ones than Rick makes, but I can't fault one person for two people not belonging together, unless the one person realizes it and still tries to keep up the façade. I don't believe Lori did that. I agree with Rick that she wasn't a bad mother just because Carl got naughty or wandered off sometimes. She obviously cared deeply for the boy and tried her best to communicate that love, keep him safe, and continue his education. I do think however her insistence on keeping Shane away from Carl the instant Rick reappeared was a bad choice. If she truly believed that her place as a woman living in the ZA was ONLY to do domestic chores, then okay I can't fault her for what she wants and believes for herself, but it has never been cool with me how she expected all other women in the group to fall in line with her. I'm inclined to believe that just like she clung to a marriage that wasn't meant to last, she clung to a gender role that wasn't meant to last either. She felt safe with familiarity and structure, yet we've seen she was eventually able to adapt without it too. I also blame Shane for normalizing/reinforcing the idea that these were the only roles women had to fill, back in S1-S2.

    3. Nope. When Carl said to her that was his mother (and so he had to do this), my heart went out to him. It was a terrible thing to have to do but we all know Carl saw it as an act of love and mercy to handle this himself. There was also going to be some closure in it for him to do the deed himself, as some have mentioned. I don't think it's terrible of him to want that for himself in the end.

    4. I didn't notice much different this time. Just lots of random extras wandering around aimlessly in Woodbury.

    5. On Michonne and Andrea, I still haven't changed my mind: I don't believe either Andrea or Michonne is in the wrong to trust/distrust the Woodbury and its people. I also feel I can better understand why Michonne didn't bother sharing what she saw on the tanks. Andrea wasn't going to buy whatever case she made. I can see that now. My only exception to the general blanket idea that neither of them is to blame? Andrea appearing to take Merle of all people at his word that the Gov is a "good person."

    On another note, when I get to it, I have a few things to say in the Michonne's wig thread after watching this ep.
     
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  4. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    I just realized more things I hadn't noticed before that I forgot to mention:

    - Early on, the Gov mostly just leaves things out and doesn't flat out lie. I forget what lie he was telling, but when he does lie in this ep (I can't remember which lie it was now-- but it was a big one I think), his face gets super-twitchy all over.

    - Rick picks up his axe (which is reportedly his trademark weapon in the comics) from Andrew. You see Andrew use it early on.
     
  5. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    This was a very heartbreaking episode for me for a number of reasons. It was also an episode that pissed me off to no end.

    1. What do you think was the point of T-Dog dying ? This is where my anger comes in because there was no fucking point! Excuse my language. Not only did they do the character of TDog a disservice, they then overshadowed his "heroic" death with the most emotionally impactful death thereby minimizing their intent to give TDog this one thing. It was pretty apparent that GM was just throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks, but more on that later.
    2. Now that Lori is no longer with us, what are your final thoughts on her as a person, mother and wife ? I disagreed with fans claiming Lori was a bad mother. She did the best she could in a bad situation. As for her being a bad wife, I don't think I would call her bad wife necessarily, I believe she genuinely fell in love with another man when she thought her husband had died. When Rick returned both she and Rick fell into the pattern of "trying to make it work" despite the glaring red flags. My biggest issue with Lori was she didn't have the balls (or frankly the respect for Rick and her marriage) to tell him the truth, instead she played this back and forth with Rick and Shane and ended up losing them both in the end.
    3.Do think Maggie should have talked Carl out of killing his own mother? No. As someone said up thread I think Carl needed to have closure.
    4.What did you think about the writing for the women in this episode ? The writing was OK. I had an issue with the Woodbury part of the storyline, but what else is new LOL. Andrea should have just come right out and told Michonne she had no intention of leaving. LH's acting really grated on my nerves in this particular episode.

    What I also hated about the Andrea and Michonne dynamic is IMO they really feminized Andrea which sharply contrasted with Michonne's character. I understand GM wanted to keep the warrior vibe but I hate that at times it appeared, at least to me, that he didn't want her "appearing" to be too feminine. Case in point the Governor gives them one room with one bed and a couch. In one scene you see the bed has one pillow, it's obvious the assumption is feminine Andrea will get the bed, especially since Michonne dumps her stuff on the couch. It really bothered me whenever they were shown together, it's no wonder people were willing to accept that Michonne was asexual or just a buddy to Rick.

    5. What did you noticed that you didn't noticed the last time you watched this episode ?
    The vomit inducing way Merle was checking out Andrea as she was showing him the map and the fact that Andrea's response in essence felt like she was telling him "hey well maybe if you didn't call me a whore and a rug muncher, I might have given you a go!"- I mean come on, why is she being all charming with Merle, Merle of all people!

    Behind the scenes:

    I know many posters feel that GM had some type of "understanding" of the need to tell minority stories but, with respect, I strongly disagree.

    This man had an opportunity to craft a story for TDog, an original character much like Daryl and Carol, but he chose not to with some bullshit cop out line. This was his reasoning behind killing TDog, which he explained in a 2012 interview with The Walking Dead News:

    "Glen Mazzara: That was something that we decided this season. All the material you see this season was developed this season. So we had this character T-Dog that, last year when I took over, the character hadn’t really been developed. The show focused on other dynamics so that character got short drift. So as we’re bringing in new characters and developing new characters we looked at; what is this story that we want to tell? And unfortunately we didn’t want to continue to have a character in the background that wasn’t being explored and we have these new characters that we have to explore. So we had very lengthy discussions about that character and his faith and it came up that he would die heroically and once we did that it felt right. It felt like a good and emotional story for that character. You always look for good storied for the characters. Unfortunately this resulted in his death. But I think it was an important story to tell and I think it was the right ending for that character."

    And as some might have known Carol was scripted to die in this episode and GM had actually told MMB a few shows earlier that she was going to be killed off, but he changed his mind at the last minute, I'm guessing he felt she had a "story to tell" and TDog didn't! Yeah, I do love MMB but WTF! IMO he decided to kill TDog instead of Carol, here's his BS on that:

    "Glen Mazzara: Yes, in the first half of the season I did tell Melissa McBride that Carol was going to be killed of. I told her that and then we came up with a better plan that was that if T-Dog had saved her, if T-Dog sacrificed his life we felt that that sacrifice was only worthwhile if Carol lived. But we didn’t want to reveal that Carol was alive at the end of that episode because we were really going with the devastation of Lori’s death. And we were just embracing the mournful aspect of that last scene where Rick breaks down and we did not want to undercut it with the positive of “oh, here is Carol”. So it took a little while until we came up with “what if she locked herself in a cell and couldn’t get out and she was dehydrated and horse from screaming” and then she was saved by Daryl two episodes later. But I did tell Melissa McBride that she would be killed of and then when I called her back and told he she was not being killed of she was very, very happy."
     
  6. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I finally rewatched this episode. I have only seen it maybe three times, it is too much for me. I put it off and put it off--I cried like a baby. And, people think this story is about the zombies, nothing could be further from the truth.
    The start of the episode is so happy. They even joke about Maggie and Glenn being up in the guard tower. Rick even laughed! All of them did. That Daryl is such a kidder! (I know there are those who consider him asexual, but he displays an interest sex. He was totally making a funny about Maggie and Glenn having sex, frequently. He does at other times, too. Maybe I don't understand the protocols that makes one asexual.). Hershel was up and walking. Everyone was so happy...Hershel is so awesome, what a great character. He even took out a walker with his crutch. Talk about a badass! Those scenes were terrific. It was so nice to see them laughing. Lori and Rick sharing those looks, omg, and Lori's smile and Rick's little nod. That was priceless. *Heavy sigh* The good never lasts.

    I was very emotional seeing T-dog give his life to safe Carol. Devasting...it was so hard to see that! I can't even discuss the scene with Lori and Carl. I sob when I watch it. (Poor Maggie...I could not have done that.) Lori's words to Carl are so sad and beautiful. It breaks my heart. Can I say, I love Oscar. Why couldn't he have lived. I get why he chose Rick and Team Family. He was thinking about the way life was in the prison. He didn't want any more of that. Team Family has women and children, the first thing he asked about when they got out of the cafeteria was his girlfriend/wife and his children. He gets it. I think it was important that he was the one to kill Andrew. (Andrew was a really tough, little guy...a bad guy, but tough.)
    I just to not understand the Governor and Andrea thing. He is obviously not wrapped tight. Why ask Merle about the Governor? I know she knew him, but she knows he wouldn't tell her the truth about the situation, she's a girl. He would never talk about "guy stuff" with her. My goodness, he was tryng to push up on her. C'mon Andrea, you gotta ask him in a different way. And, oooo, I thought Merle was gonna stab the Governor with his bayonet prosthesis. But, the words he says about golf at Augusta (with women) and his words earlier to Andrea, let's the audience know he wouldn't...he has a code. (I want to talk about Michael Rooker/Merle, but I'll resist, lol.) Michonne was being understanding of Andrea's wanting to stay, but Andrea wasn't really being honest about not wanting to leave. She just kept dodging the truth of how she felt. Not a good choice in those circumstances.

    Let me take a deep breath, I will never be able to talk about Rick's reaction to Lori's death. It has been four years since that happened. I still can't deal with it. (Andrew Lincoln did himself proud in that scene.)
    1. I think the writers wanted to make T-dog a hero. I think it was a way to undo so much of the bad they did to that character. It was shameful. They had plot and story reasons, as well, making way for bigger characters and story, so his death was practical. The making him a selfless hero was an attempt to salvage T-dog as a character. They just bumped into an another trope other than the sacrificial lamb Black character...the noble Black person willing to die for a white person. It was good that T-dog stayed on TWD as long as he did, I liked him, but it was getting really hard to watch how his character was handled.
    2. I hate to think Lori was just not up to what was being asked of her before and after the turn...but I think that is exactly the case. She was doing her best, but she was falling short. I don't think Rick and Carl thought that, not really, but I think she did. What makes me think that is not the scences we've seen up to Season 3, but the scene when Rick tells Carol about the pancakes. He tells Carol Lori wanted them to be "that kinda family" the kind that had pancakes on Sundays. "Never mind it isn't real, just act like it's real."-- that was a weakness, not something that helped before the ZA and was dangerous after. It was why she couldn't accept the true Rick, it wasn't the way she thought it in her head, he wasn't following what ever script she had. It unsettled her that Rick was not just a man on automatic, he was/is deep and thoughtful...she did not know him, not the authentic Rick. If she had been able to understand that Rick was not typical she would have been able to make an honest choice, be his wife, his full partner or end it. The end of things and how things went for them, the situation with Shane, made the way she dea!t with things like a cracked plate. Too much jostling and the plate breaks. I think she was a better mother than wife. She did good by Carl. Parenting is different from being a spouse I don't know what she could have done about the mess with Shane, how awful it all was. Her biggest mistake was not telling Rick right away, not cursing Shane out, telling him openly that she was angry and hated him. How could she not? Both, the anger and hate, would have subsided, but she was faking the opposite and it was not doable. Then, not knowing her guy, not knowing he would just wrap her in his love and take the blame for not being there and putting her in that situation, 'cause that's who Rick is.
    3. Well, we know what it means to the person left to be there to do that for the person they love. It is a heavy burden, but it is an act of love and devotion. Like he said, she was his mom. It isn't clear at that point in the story, but it was coming clear...they had a pact and Lori told Maggie it couldn't be Rick. So they have weaved that new reality into their lives, the things the new world requires. I don't think it was so bad that Carl did it, It was necessary that that took place. It, keeping the person from turning, has a huge signigfcance in their group.
    4. Wow, that Andrea confuses me. Maybe that is a device, she is confused, conflicted and so is the audience?...at least, I was. Michonne"s clear look at the facts is intended to show the contrast between their attitudes about the Gov. and Woodbury. He had an answer for everything, so slick and smamy. Andrea isn't interested in getting details about Woodbury, she wants to stay. I was impressed with Lori's final words to Carl. Well written and well acted. Maggie is just as tough as her dad. And, she was so funny when she called Daryl's "you comin'" joke gross. Overall, the women characters were all super in this episode, IMO. I just don't like the business with Andrea and the Governor.
    5. I noticed had reluctant I was to watch this again, I 'm glad it's over. I noticed that Merle and the Governor have a tense relationship, evident in that scene when talks a out going ng out to look for Daryl. I noticed how much I was wishing that Rick wouldn't just give Oscar and Axel a chance. It was funny watching Axel making nice to everyone, he is so well played by Lew Temple.

    I still haven't read everyone's posts, like I mentioned, I was avoiding watching, so I haven't read the thread yet. I will read through and watch the next episode tonight. Looking forward to seeing everyone's thoughts and comments. This episode is heart wrenching.
     
    #6 Katbird, Sep 5, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
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  7. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    I think these two things go together. Andrea had tons of questions for everyone when she first entered Woodbury, but in this episode you can see that she's already (subconsciously?) decided to stay. Even this early, it seems that she's decided that everything checks out and is basically okay. She's wrong, but I don't think she's confused.

    Yes, I really agree with this. She spends so much of her time on the show pretending to be or have something that never really existed, when what she really should have been doing was figuring out her own feelings.
     
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  8. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Quick clarification (for those who are unclear on it), just what asexuality is. Mental exercise: When a straight woman looks at another woman, or a gay woman looks at a man she can tell whether that person would be sexually attractive to others or not, but she won't feel attracted to that person herself. Ace people are just the same way... with everyone. And that's it. Being asexual means that you are not sexually aroused by anyone (i.e. looks/voice/etc.) It doesn't mean you've never heard of sex, or that you can't see the signs other people are doing something sexual (and therefore joke about it like Daryl does). It doesn't mean you can't fall in love. It doesn't mean that you can't find someone aesthetically pleasing to look at. It doesn't even mean you don't have sex. Plenty of ace people choose to have sex (though many also do not), but not for the same reasons sexual people do. (And it has nothing to do with someone being "childish" or having some sort of condition either. I say that to hopefully head off the sadly common stereotypes that tend to come up.)
     
    #8 Sasha's Living Room, Sep 7, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016
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