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Poll TWD Rewatch Club: Triggerfinger 2x09

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by SevenStars, Jul 31, 2016.

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What Grade would you give episode 2x08 ?

This poll will close on Aug 31, 2019 at 2:09 AM.
  1. A

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  2. B

    5 vote(s)
    62.5%
  3. C

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  4. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Hey guys,

    I know this post is way, way, way earlier than I usually post but I'm going out really early today and won't be unitl way late, so I thought it would be better for me to post it now, than wait to post it so late into the night. There are a couple of things I would like to discuss with you and get your feedback on.

    1) it seems like most people are down the live-viewing. We will finish episode 12 on 8/10 , a Wednesday . We need to decide when we will do the live viewing for episode 13. It doesn't have to be on a Sunday or Wednesday. It can be any day and time that is convenient for most of us. So I would like for people who would like to participate to suggest what day and time would be good for them.

    2) It seems that a lot of us are falling behind in watching these episodes because real life is demanding our attentions. So I was wondering if you guys wanted to try to do one episode pre-week, instead of two and see how it goes. We can try it for the first 5 episodes of S3 to see if it would be better for most people. If most people like it, we will keep it that way and if most don't like it, we will change it back. Tell me what you think of this idea.

    Now onto the questions:
    1. What did you think of Lori and Shane’s discussion about their relationship ?

    2. How do you think Lori expected Rick when she whispered in his ear that Shane think she is his, he’s danger and won’t stop until he has her ?

    3.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?

    4. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?

    @Sasha's Living Room @lovingdead @Katbir @Flower1petals @Caribbeanqueen11 @MrsG@chaundee @Gooey Goobert @Canuckgirl @Jetamors
    @TexasZAgal
     
  2. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Just speaking for myself, I appreciated that you posted the thread earlier this time. I don't know how it is for everyone else, but it makes it easier for me to keep up actually.

    1. What did you think of Lori and Shane’s discussion about their relationship ?
    I noticed they were talking more "at" each other than "to" each other. I think Lori knew without a doubt in her mind she was never going to go back to him again, but Shane was living in a fantasy world where he thought otherwise. The rest of the conversation goes accordingly. The great irony here is that even if there was a slight chance of Shane "winning" Lori from Rick, he's completely blowing it.

    2. How do you think Lori expected Rick when she whispered in his ear that Shane think she is his, he’s danger and won’t stop until he has her ?
    How did Lori expect Rick to react? Honestly, I think she just wanted him on his guard. Lori was in panic mode and wasn't thinking her message through properly so it comes off sounding melodramatic, but this wasn't some cold, calculated message intended to set the two men against each other. By this point, she was afraid of what Shane was capable of. I think that after Dale opened her eyes, she was able to see Shane for what he was (see below for my thoughts on that). Rick was in the same place she was a couple of eps ago when she didn't believe Dale and said Shane was just a "hothead." Now she's looked the guy in the eye and seen clearly what he's becoming, and she's just plain afraid.

    3.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?
    It's so weird. Lori's three walker kills should have been triumphant, but it almost looks like she succeeded by accident? Andrea throwing Shane's words back at him so he can agree with himself was almost as disturbing as her completely failure to say anything when he said "I should have left with you when I had the chance." You can kind of see on her face that she's wondering why he thinks "the chance" has passed, yet we'll never know what her actual thoughts were about that (or if she knew Lori's child could likely be his).

    4. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?
    Shane at the dinner table is laughing and blowing off people's worries about Hershel, Rick, and Glenn but then he's the first to worry and run off when it turns out Lori isn't there with them. Consider that as far as they all know, she is probably in the same place as Rick and the others. To me this not only implies Dale was right in what he said to Andrea about Shane being happy if Rick and Hershel were out of the way-- it also seems to indicate he was lying to Carl when he told him he thought his father was a tough sob. He didn't trust Rick could protect his wife. It just underscores even further how forced the accident was, that Shane has to be the one to save her. They needed to have Shane be morally grey for a while, but they were pushing it too far by this point. imo it would have been way better if she DID make it to the bar to find them but everything else was the same and then Shane only made it in time to see them trying to help Randall.

    I never forgot what a badass Rick was in that scene with the two guys in the bar. It's hard to believe Shane can doubt him, but I guess it's just his coveting of Lori speaking when he tries to say Rick can't protect her.
     
  3. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    For liveview timing, I'm on the West Coast, and I work normal business hours.

    It's so weird... the first time I watched, I really believed that Lori was in love with Shane and trying to repress it for Rick's/her marriage's sake. But rewatching it now, I'm less and less sure that Lori was ever really in love with him. And even if she was once, I don't think that she is by this point. I think she's afraid of him, and I think she's right to be afraid of him.
    I think it was a good thing, actually. Shane is a severe threat to both of them, and they can finally talk about it freely. I think this is something Lori needed to talk to Rick about, instead of keeping it to herself; by telling her husband about this danger, she's protecting him and her marriage.
    Update to the female zombie kill count: Andrea is now no longer the only woman to have killed a zombie! Lori kills... I thought it was two this episode, but I might have miscounted; @Sasha's Living Room says three. I think I must have watched 2x08 and 2x09 back to back the first time I watched, because while I agree with all criticism of the (stupid, idiotic, contrived) car accident, I still mostly think of it as the (dumb) set-up for Lori to be awesome.

    The rest was okay... could have done without Daryl calling Lori a "dumb bitch" :/ I felt bad for Carol too; I think she really was expecting Daryl to hit her :(

    That weird sudden day to night switch between the end of last episode and this one XD

    I probably noticed it the first time too, but I laughed so hard when Maggie ran right past her dad to hug Glenn.

    When was the last time T-Dog had any meaningful dialogue? During the well zombie convo in 2x04?

    It always really bothers me that they never give people something to bite down on when they're doing amputations. (Thanks, whichever field trip it was that I learned about battle medicine during the Civil War.)
     
  4. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    I saw Lori stab one in the head inside the car and it seemed to be dead. I saw her swing a hubcap at a second one outside the car and I couldn't confirm that kill but it wasn't moving, lying on the ground. Then she shot one point-blank. Were the hubcap and gunshot for the same walker, maybe? If so, then two walkers it is. Regardless, I'm proud of her (and see this as another point of proof she could have been a survivor if she'd just made it past childbirth), but I feel like something was off about it?

    btw maybe that can be a question from me to everyone: How did you feel about Lori's walker kills? Did it feel more like a solid achievement, a horrific ordeal she should never have gone through, or something else?

    Thank you for clarifying why it felt so weird that it was nighttime. :D

    Poor T-Dog hasn't had a meaningful line in ages. :/

    Maggie running past Hershel just made me uncomfortable, but oh well. I think they did give a couple of people something to bite down on. Definitely Tyreese. Maybe also Hershel, but I can't remember. I'm so looking forward to S3+ Hershel, and we got a taste of him in this ep. After Rick took those two guys out, Hershel was almost like Rick's right hand man. In fact all three of them were instantly brought together in that moment, but Hershel specifically put his trust and faith in Rick, slid a rifle to Glenn, and he saved Glenn's life. Seeing him tell Shane off when they got back (:michomg:) was the last sign of the old Hershel left, it seemed to me.
     
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  5. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I haven't watched this one in a while, I like this one a lot. I am remembering how I felt on the first watch...I was not nice. I was kinda cheering for the walkers to get Lori. Shame on me, lol. I remember really liking how the aftermath of the killing of the two guys in the bar was handled. Glenn was completely awed by what Ricvk did. Hershel's response to Rick seemingly asking if he was okay...that long pause, looking him thoughtfully up and down, then that nod-- "Okay, good buddy, I'm in." Hershel and Rick come to an agreement right then. A huge moment for Hershel. When he (Herrshel) finally sees what walkers do he is shocked, he needed to see that. The whole mess with the accident, Shane bringing Lori back by lying, revealing the pregnancy, in a way only he can. After that, Lori was happy to tell him that she told Rick, Shane's face--no more secret to share, an intimate secret. His last little tie to her, gone. Now this baby is the one last thing he thinks he shares with her. No wonder things wound up how they did. Him saying "it was a long time coming" for them, ooo, could it have been more bluntly stated? I really would like to know how the three of them got along before the turn...Shane saying that, was no little thing. That is why I think his fiendship with Rick was the most important thing, the best thing in Shane's life before the turn. He would not jeopardize that relationship to act on his feelings for Lori.

    I get a bad feeling every time Hershel and Shane interact...I don't think Shane likes father-figures. Rick is the exact opposite...nothing but respect/deference for Hershel. I'm glad Hershel to!d him to ease down, though. The whole thing with Maggie and G!enn was well p!ayed. Glenn was getting his man bearings quick, fast, and in a hurry with everything that has been going on with him and Maggie and him and Rick and him and the group. A whole lot of things at once. He was feeling the pressure, poor guy. Daryl fussing at Carol, really was him fussing at himself, she took it, though. Let him lash out at her to help him get past failing, to him failing, Sophia. It was painful to watch. But he rejoined them to go find Rick and co. Then, he came inside to hear the discussion, big...big.

    1. When those two have a little talk, be ready for some mess, lol. Last little talk, Shane blew a gasket--break open barn/put down walkers/Sophia discovered. Lori was pissed off at Shane and was trying to hurt him (why?--if you gon' be done with the man, be done.) so she just blurted that out about telling Rick. Then, for me, anyway, Miss Flip, Flop, and Fly got all in her feelings when Shane reminded her of what had gone on between them. She got the hush mouth. It was all over her face. She knows what Rick means to Shane and that look of his was obviously about Rick knowing what he did, ' cause he wanted to know how she presented it to him, how she explained. He seemed like he was hoping, maybe, she would admit to Rick that she fell in love with him. That's really what I think his questions to her were about. Like: "You gave him a story, you didn't tell him the truth. That you are in love with me." That is an important scene for how things progress. Shane is under so much pressure, I can't help it, I feel bad for him. He thinks that is his baby...what can he do? He tried to leave, she convinced him not to. He was putting up a barrier between them, himself and her and Carl, right!ly or wrongly, she ragged on him so bad, she guilted him out of that tactic.. Had he gone before he knew she was pregnant...? who knows, but, of course, it serves the story, I get it. Anyway, great scene.
    2.Well, we all know that Lady McBeth overture with that scene. Proding him (Rick) to act. Telling him that Shane will take what's his, using him revealing he killed two people to get back to her and his children as almost a taunt.Now, this is where I really take issue with Lori. Never mind, she did not offer Rick an ounce of solace or comfort after having to kill two people. ( I know ut's not her job to soothe Rick's angst, but com'on, that's your husband, act like it). She never got his back. She could give a f**k about how he may be feeling. That is an opportunity to tell him that his best friend is out to get what he got, take everything he has in the world from him. I didn't notice before that Rick was blowing off/countering everything she was saying about Shane, until he mentioned killing the men. She wants him to have it in his mind that Shane's intentions require the same actions because Shane will do what he did, because he thinks Lori and the baby are his. "He'll kill you like you killed the men, 'cause to him, I and the baby, are his. Kill him first." I think she was mad as hell at him, maybe because Carl found out that way and he lied to her, again. He really brought her back to what happen about Rick before, she is angry.
    3. The writing for women in this one, was a reversion, IMO. They give, they take away. Maggie is still the best written, but Andrea is not so bad. The storyline is what seems not so attractive. Maggie makes Glenn lose focus. Lori is a wedge between brothers-in-arms. She uses manipulation to contrtol Rick's action. Andrea tries to reason with Shane, he dismisses her, twice. Not the best this episode.
    4. I notice Hershel came around real quick after Rick killed Dave and Tony. He had almost zero issue with the option of killing Randall. He wants to get home to his family. I like the group discussion, trying so hard to maintain some structure to their lives. The little campsite Daryl has, is kinda creepy, I was a little put off by it, weird. I noticed that Maggie was disappointed in Hershel, but was angry that she didn't know how to take care of things with Beth, while he and Glenn and Rick were gone. She didn't like that at all.
    Haven't read everyone's posts yet, looking forward to seeing what you guys think. I can be way, way off sometimes, lol.
     
    #5 Katbird, Aug 1, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2016
  6. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    Yeah, that explains it; I thought hubcap and gunshot were the same walker. See previous problems about how to count kills >.<

    Like I said, personally I saw this as a triumph. I can really understand other interpretations of it, though; the set-up was dumb, the fact that she was out there at all was dumb. I think it depends on what you're prioritizing at this point in the narrative; for me, I was just getting frustrated with how the women mostly weren't engaging in combat, and regardless of what else was going on, I just wanted them to finally kill some zombies already.

    Huh, I'd never thought about Shane and father figures before, but I think that's really insightful. (Do we ever hear anything about Shane's actual dad?) It also makes me wonder whether finding out about Lori's pregnancy brought up a lot of those weird issues from the past.

    I see your POV here, but my issue is, everything she's saying is absolutely correct; Shane really is obsessed with her, and he really does want to kill Rick so he can "take what's his". He goes on to do every single thing she warns about in this scene. I don't think she's saying these things to be manipulative; I think she's saying them because they're her actual (and correct) assessment of the situation. I would judge her a lot more if she knew all this but kept it to herself; to me, that would be manipulative and playing the men off each other.

    Asking Shane to stay earlier in the season was a really bad idea, and I think it's reasonable to see it as manipulative. I agree with you that she could have dealt with the pregnancy and Shane's possible parentage better (though Shane deciding the answer was to kill Rick is like... one of the worst possible reactions to what she decided). But in this scene, to me, she's just telling her husband the truth. I really think that was the best thing she could have done.
     
  7. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    I'd have to go back and look again, but I think the hubcap/gunshot walkers did both have dark hair so maybe it was the same one.

    Hmm. It could explain a lot if Shane had unresolved issues with his father, like that he left when he was young or something.

    I agree Lori made some bad choices including when she asked Shane to stay, but how is that manipulative? She was asked her opinion on whether he should go or not, and she just answered without thinking it through properly. To be manipulative, there has to be some premeditation or ulterior motive going on. I don't think either was the case with her. She didn't see Shane as a threat at the time. I wish she put more weight behind what happened at the CDC, but I think that instead what was weighing on her was that Rick and Carl would miss/worry about him, and she would feel guilty. (Someone else mentioned these things at the time, I'm sorry I don't remember who it was, but I totally agree.)
     
  8. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    Well, I gave my interpretation of it back here; I saw it as primarily a fear-based reaction. I think how much you see that as "manipulative" depends on how much slack you want to cut Lori; I'm generally sympathetic to her, but honestly I'm also a fearful person myself, so sometimes I second-guess whether I'm being too sympathetic XD I think @Gooey Goobert was the one who noticed the possible effects on Carl.

    (Also, it's neat looking back at that thread: a lot of people twigged that Lori and Dale were the ones who were suspicious of the Otis story, and now they've both confirmed it.)
     
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  9. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I am so conflicted when it comes to Shane. Usually people may describe a character/villain as "the guy you love to hate", in keeping with my odd way of seeing things, for me, Shane is the guy I hate to love, lol. I'm a little embarrassed by my need to, not really defend him, just explain him a bit. (As if I could actually know, duh!) I think before Carl was shot he told her of his intention to leave (the convo that was overheard by Andrea), at the church where they heard the bells...she was chiding him about how he was treating Carl, which she had done at the highway, too...when Carl found that great gear. After the get medical supplies/kill Otis run, Shane goes to check on Carl and, if I'm remembering right, that's when she says to Shane " stay" at Carl's bedside. He kinda nods and walks away. This is before she is sure she's pregnant. At a later time, Shane asks her if she meant it when she said stay...she told him she did. Now, we see, she must suspect she is pregnant, next episode she sends for the pregnancy test.
    I don't usually have a problem with Lori and the mess that happened, it was an impossible situation...all stemming from Shane's huge mistake, so he knda brings it on himself. I just always think she made things worse by her choices because she was trying to protect her secret. Shane may be obsessed with Lori, I think he is, but she is feeding that obsession, maybe not intentionally, but she is, nonetheless. When they talk together, especially, just the two of them, they use whispers and hushed tones. During his freak out, Shane tells her to keep her hands off him...they are in a crowd of people and that was an intimate exchange--just because something is intimate, doesn't make it private and vis-versa. I guess that is what JB and SWC wanted to convey, that's what I get, anyway. I am not harsh on Lori, I just don't get why she wasn't more cut and dried with Shane. I think she is always giving him a single or some inkling they could be together if...and she lets Shane fill in the blank. Not a good idea with a guy like Shane. When they were still at the quarry, at the start of the show, I got the feeling Lori was actually a little afraid of Shane, was trying to p!acate him. He did try to force himself on her,, but still she didn't let him know, "I'm done." They have a strange dynamic, a different relationship.

    Aside: Shane's attitude towards Dale and Hershel is not generous, he is out-and-out mean to them. That behavior has something behind it. Shane threatened Dale and bowed up on Hershel. I think he, Shane, has some daddy issues of his own, IMO. I am ranging far-a-field...I better get off the subject of Shane Walsh!
     
  10. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Just want to further clarify that a good 90% of what I'm taking issue with here is the idea of Lori "manipulating" anybody, and not anything else. To compare her to Lady Macbeth (who was trying to gain something and who specifically advocating murdering someone) or call her a manipulator in general is way beyond saying Lori's words or actions had an effect on either Rick or Shane, which I certainly would not dispute in and of itself. I'm also right there with you on all the mistakes she made in handling Shane or in how long she kept things from Rick. imo her worst sins in this situation are probably in not having the empathy to consider what Shane was going through and in not being up front with Rick from the start. Lots of missteps for sure, but it's still not manipulative or controlling behaviour. Intent matters.

    There is no reason to believe Lori had some ulterior motive, was deceitful, or was trying to control anyone in any way. Without any of those things, you can't say someone is being manipulative. By whatever logic one might use to call her one, Dale is at least as much of a manipulator as her, yet I haven't yet seen anyone call him out for it. He was the first to raise the alarm about Shane, and he kept confronting him for who knows what reason, which is also going to have an effect.
     
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  11. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    #11 Katbird, Aug 2, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
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  12. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    I have such mixed feelings on this Episode.

    The time change was such a glaring editing issue and could have been done much better. I also don't understand how Lori could believe her husband would be back at the farm yet Shane would be the one to come looking for her. The fact that she didn't even question why Rick hadn't come for her if he was back was a huge red flag as to the state of their relationship

    That being said, JB and SWC were amazing in conveying the complexities of their relationship. By this time we know how close the three of them were post apocalypse and I believe for all his swagger and being a ladies man, Shane envied Rick & Lori's relationship. I also believe both Rick and Lori loved Shane and were both close to him in different ways. As such, I think it was a natural progression for Shane to step into Rick's role as Lori & Carl's protector and then "husband and father figure", and it was an easy shift for Lori to accept him as such. From a purely objective standpoint it's easy to fall in love with your close friend (see Richonne). I believe Lori was or had fallen in love with Shane, but she also loves her husband. I think like Rick, Lori would not have strayed from her marriage. Unlike Rick however she would have divorced him and then moved on, but I don't think she would ever knowingly or intentionally cheat on Rick.

    I also don't believe she's manipulative, and in this episode I really feel how heartbreaking it is for her to realize the friend who saved her and Carl, that she leaned on and fell in love with, is obsessed with her to the point of taking someone's life and use her as
    justification. She has to now consider the fact that her "protector" may go so far as harming his own best friend (and her husband) because of his love for her and his need to "protect" her.

    1. What did you think of Lori and Shane’s discussion about their relationship? Paying close attention to both his words and Lori's actions it was apparent, at least to me, that Lori was trying to hide from the things Shane were saying. His statement that it was a long time coming made me wonder if he had been attracted to her or had loved her romantically before the ZA and felt that an attraction was there on her end. His choice of words would seem to indicate that was the case. As he's declaring his love for her and telling her that she felt it too, she looks away and cannot meet his eyes or deny what he's saying. I may not be a Lori fan, but she does not strike me as the type of person to be able to lie well. I believe she felt all of the things he did, but like she is doing with the baby, she's choosing her life with her husband and son and wants Shane to respect that.

    2. How do you think Lori expected Rick when she whispered in his ear that Shane think she is his, he’s danger and won’t stop until he has her ? Honestly, I don't see this as a manipulation. For the first time she's opening up to him and telling him her fears. And IMO she chooses Rick, at least in this instance. If she did not put Rick on guard I do not believe Rick would have come to the realization that Shane wanted him gone. I believe her words put Rick on his guard. Had she not done that I would have thought she was manipulating them both.

    3.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?
    The writing for Lori improved in that it showed she is capable of protecting herself and surviving in this new reality without having to rely on a man to save her. Andrea just came off forced to me. Her staunch defence of Shane was just off-putting and, as a side note, I wonder how in the hell could LH not see that GM was not gonna give her the happy ever after with Rick as per the comics especially with the way she was being written! I think the actress was being wilfully blind IMO.

    4. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ? The ease in which Shane took on the "man of the house/leader" mantle with Rick and Hershel gone. He walks into Hershel's house and sits at the head of the table pretty as you please. The ONLY person he would have left the safety of that little picture for is Lori. Absent Carl, if anyone else were misding from the farm, other than those who had left, he would never have left to go looking for them. As long as Lori & Carl are with him he could give a shit about anyone else. Yep Andrea, he's a great leader!
     
    #12 Caribbeanqueen11, Aug 2, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
  13. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I love that Lori was resourceful enough to save herself. I enjoyed the way she took on those two walkers.

    The Rick talked to those guys that were shooting at him reminded me of how he talked to the governor when he came to the prison. Some of the sentences were exactly alike.

    Glenn save by a dumpster, :lol::lol:.

    Once again Shane lied to Lore in order to get her to do what he wants. This time I don’t think it was about protecting her but keeping her away from Rick, because there was no reason for Shane to have told her that lie. It wouldn’t have cost him to go check on him like she wanted.

    Rick/Glenn/Herschel trying to help that boy really show their hearts. I loved it because it was in character but I was so scared for them.

    Daryl was bastard to Carol and I didn’t like it. It felt like Carol was used to that type of abused, so she was okay with the way he was verbally abusing her. It didn’t sits right with me because it added an ugly aspect to their relationship for me.


    1. What did you think of Lori and Shane’s discussion about their relationship ?
    It was interesting. I always knew that Shane felt way more for Lori than just someone to find comfort in a time of need. But I question these feelings. I'm not sure if Shane's feelings are the result of him learning who Lori is and falling in love with that person. Or if his feelings are base on the fact that the world is ending and he desperately needs someone to hold onto. The foundation of the situation is so complicated that I can't get a proper handle on how Shane really feels.

    As for Lori, her silence when Shane told her that she had really feelings for him makes me think she did. She might not have been in love with him. But I think somewhere along the line she developed strong feelings for him as man.

    2. How do you think Lori expected Rick when she whispered in his ear that Shane think she is his, he’s danger and won’t stop until he has her ?
    I read people argument that Lori was basically asking Rick to kill Shane. I didn't buy that argument before because for some reason, I forgot all about this scene. But watching this scene, I can't help but think they were right.
    The way Lori went about telling Rick that Shane was dangerous and thought she was his, makes it clear that she expect Rick to do something about. Other than kill him, I guess she might have wanted Rick to send him away. Because that's basically what I got from this scene. It doesn't matter what Lori does or say after, the way this scene was set-up, it makes it clear that Lori wanted Rick to do something about Shane.

    3.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?
    Not really, but I like that Lori basically saved herself.

    4. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?
    The Rick and Lori scene that I mentioned above. It was really chilling to watch the way Lori talked into Rick's ears. There was such a vibe of manipulation coming from her that I couldn't believe it was the same Lori I have been watching. It felt like she changed into someone else.

    I forgot that Glenn tried to break-up with Maggie because he blamed her for him caring about his life enough to protect it. I get where Glenn was coming from but I wanted to tell him to shut-up.
     
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  14. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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  15. Jetamors

    Jetamors Babysitting Judith

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    Well, one way to look at it is to say that she should have waited, but another way to look at it is that she's done keeping secrets from Rick. She tells him about this as soon as they're alone together. If she'd waited, you could make arguments about that being manipulative, like her biding her time and waiting for the most persuasive moment. Also I went and looked up a transcript of the episode: unless random Internet site is steering me wrong, these are her actual words:

    I killed two people myself because of you, and Carl and the baby.
    It was gonna be me and not them no matter what.
    You killed the living to protect what's yours? That's right.


    I think the reason her mind is going to killing is, first, because Shane actually is murderous. (Again, I can't stress this enough: she's not lying about Shane. She's completely right about him. She is neither over-exaggerating nor under-estimating him.) But it's also because she's just killed two walkers herself less than 24 hours ago, probably for the very first time. She's probably still riding a little on that adrenaline high of having killed something else so that she could survive and reunite with her family. She can now see both herself and Rick as protectors of their family on a very visceral level. What you're seeing as manipulation, I see more as her Mama Bear instincts coming to the front; she knows that she can kill to protect her family, and she's secure in that knowledge.

    Even with that, I don't think she's the one who's pushing; what's she's doing is describing Shane's pushing and zero-sum thinking. He's the one who's making this a situation that all three of them can't come out of alive.
     
  16. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Hahaha me too. XD

    Yeah I can see her wanting to be absolved, and being too attached to everything pre-ZA, including a marriage that might have ended in divorce had the world not become what it did. But as @Jetamors has said, what she told Rick is the honest truth. Shane sees her as his, and he is becoming dangerous. Since Rick wasn't taking her initial warning about Shane being dangerous seriously, she grasped at the analogy of him killing those two men to protect his family. It was only then that Rick got it (which, for me, is where all the tension and ominousness of that moment comes from-- Rick finally comprehending that he can't trust his best friend anymore).

    Yes, thank you, that bothered me a lot too! I couldn't believe she wouldn't question why Rick wasn't there. Seems like we in the audience know her husband better than she does.

    Plain as day how comfortable he was with Rick and Hershel gone, wasn't it? I'd hope Andrea started to cotton on at the point when he suddenly runs off just because Lori isn't there, but sadly I don't think she did.

    :mags:

    He was making no sense. Yes, it freaked him out that that happened, but how was that her fault? He could have at least said he needed a bit of space. But the way she ran past her waiting father and then Glenn walked past her on top of it all? Awkward... :rosita:
     
  17. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    @Jetamor


    I didn't consider this but you are probably right that Lori was finally understanding what it might mean to do whatever is necessary to protect your family after running to try to save Rick and killing those walkers. But I still didn't like the way the writers and the directors framed that scene. It makes Lori's actions questionable when there was no reason for that.
     
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  18. Gooey Goobert

    Gooey Goobert Relocating to The Kingdom
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    I'm fine with the live viewing anytime on the weekend or evening during the weekdays. Whatever works best for everyone. And I'm fine with two episodes a week. I know I tend to be late but that's my lazy nature. But again, whatever everyone wants.

    1. What did you think of Lori and Shane’s discussion about their relationship ?

    It was weird that Shane said, “you cannot keep running off like that” to Lori. That makes it sound like she’s done it a couple of times before this moment, and I’m trying to wrack my brain to see when she tried to run off before, and I can only think of 1.02 when she tells them to put up the sign but clearly she never attempted. Does two incidents really make it a pattern? I guess to Shane two incidents is one too many already, but it was such an odd inclusion of the word.

    Their conversation was disturbing. Shane was unhinged, and it seemed absolutely clear that no matter how many times Lori says “no”, it will never get through to him.

    2. How do you think Lori expected Rick when she whispered in his ear that Shane think she is his, he’s danger and won’t stop until he has her ?

    I think Lori was right in telling Rick. She’s just realizing how off Shane is, and he admitted to her that he killed Otis for her and Carl. She’s fearful that Shane will eliminate any obstacles, including Rick, and she’s not wrong.

    I don’t think she was manipulating Rick but instead trying to get him to understand that what he did today, killing the living to get back to Carl and Lori is what Shane might do to Rick, and she is right. That is exactly how Shane is viewing Rick, like he’s an obstacle.

    That ending scene is framed the way it is with the creepy music and slow pan towards Rick because of what it foreshadows: Rick will have to kill his best friend, and that is supposed to unsettle us and make us uncomfortable.

    I don’t think Lori even considered the possibility of death for Shane. She just knows that he has to be dealt with, but I don’t think she realizes what that entails.

    3.Was there any improvement in the writing for the women ?

    It did in some ways. Thank goodness Shane didn’t interfere before Lori got her walker kills. Back in S1, I would have very much expected that. Still sore they even had Shane catch up to her and haul her back though.

    Shane telling Rick that Lori snuck out on her own, and he brought her back sounds like he’s talking about a little girl or a dog, not a grown woman.

    I really enjoyed Andrea and Maggie’s conversation. This is one of the things I missed from S2. Women talking to each other. It’s not much but it’s more than later seasons. I do wish the topic didn’t veer towards men though. They were so close to passing the Bechdel test.

    Anytime people equate women and children as belonging to men :dale:. Yeah, the Rick vs. Shane conflict is interesting, but I hated the implication. I'm not surprised at Lori's internalized misogyny. I'm still waiting on her comment to Andrea for not helping with the housework.

    4. What did you noticed this time that you didn't notice last time ?

    I can’t look at Glenn and dumpsters again without wanting to cringe so bad. So when Hershel said, he’s behind the dumpster, I was just :|.

    I love that Glenn seems to have an easier time throwing himself at walkers than people. That’d be the case for most people too, but it’s interesting that when it comes to dealing with dangerous people, he needs to be coached through the ordeal.

    I laughed when Glenn told the kid to shut up then quickly apologize and beg for him to be quiet. Glenn, honey, you are not good at this.

    Daryl verbally lashing out at Carol was just uncomfortable to watch. I understand he’s grieving and mad at the world, but jesus, shut up.

    This is the second time Shane lied to Lori regarding Rick’s fate. And everyone is right. He seated himself at that table like he was the new head. I just don’t understand people who say that Shane and Rick would have made up. I don’t doubt that Shane loved Rick, but at the same time, Shane is at the point of no return. Someone remind me to ask this for the season finale: Do you think Shane and Rick could have ever reconciled? That's a weird question to ask considering the events that transpired. But, for example, what if Shane did leave and then later met up with Rick. Could they then reconcile?

    I also forgot Shane is the one who discloses that Lori is pregnant to everyone.

    Dale’s conversation with Andrea is Team Shane vs Team Rick arguments personified. Dale, dammit, stop hoarding this information. You have your suspicions about Shane, which are very, very true, just tell the group already. I almost kind of do wish Shane killed Dale, not because I want to see him die but at least that death would have done more for the story than a random walker attack. We would miss some of the Carl stuff though.

    Maggie running past Hershel to hug Glenn who brushes her off was awkward for everyone involved. I also don’t know why they framed Glenn’s cowardice as a result of Maggie’s love. It was like they were really reaching for some relationship drama. I think it would have been better just to have him realize that Maggie was right about not throwing his life away carelessly.

    I nearly cheered when Hershel told Shane off. I don’t hate Shane, but I do sometimes like everyone else telling him how it is instead.

    Andrea was completely right. Shane makes good points but his attitude makes it so hard to accept them.
     
    #18 Gooey Goobert, Aug 3, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2016
  19. Caribbeanqueen11

    Caribbeanqueen11 Supplier of Mints
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    @SevenStars I'm not sure we all answered your question regarding just doing one episode per week. I'm good with 2 especially if we want to get through most of Season 3 before the show returns. I know once the Fall shows start perhaps most may have a hard time fitting in two shows. My suggestion is we continue with the 2 shows on Wed and Sun and maybe reduce to one at an agreed upon date until the Winter break, then we could go back to 2, then 1 again until after the S7 finale. I will wait to hear everyone's opinion.
     
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  20. Sasha's Living Room

    Sasha's Living Room Survivor of Many Disasters

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    Uh oh, upon rereading I think I misunderstood the second question. I thought it was about live viewings too. I also prefer two eps per week, but as Caribbeanqueen11 said, it sounds like more people need to chime in.
     
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