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Discussion/Meta Under Savior management

Discussion in '7x06: Swear' started by Barbarossa-TWD, Dec 2, 2016.

  1. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    I am wondering why some communities are treated harshly by the Saviors and some like the Kingdom are not. I think we got answer in Go Getters when Simon tells Gregory that the group of Savoirs that were dealing with the Hilltop were too relaxed.

    My theory is that the only way Negan could have set up a system so quickly and so vast was to give autonomy to his "Generals" on how they collected. As long as they collect Negan didn't seem to micro manage.

    The Saviors dealing with the Kingdom (I think that the killed the group that Ben's father was in) seemed to compromise a solution where they didn't come to the Kingdom.

    The original Hilltop Saviors also did not come to the Hilltop but supplies were delivered to them. They only came with Simon.

    The Librarians thought they could fight back and were all killed by Simon.

    Oceanside fought back and all the men were killed.

    I think not only is Negan looking for supplies but is also on the look out for new Generals. Which is why he seems so obsessed with Rick. No one has ever challenged Negan like Rick has and Negan needs to know how .

    We get a hint that Negan is beyond the survival mode and is looking to create this brave new world in his image, hence wanting babies, and Rick is already more advanced that he has two children .
     
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  2. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Yes, I get the idea that Negan thinks he can be a builder--help to rebuild society. The upcoming portion of the story is going to reveal this philosophy. The creatives are going to tell us his (Negan's) back story in conjunction with his worldview. He is reluctant to kill women, the way to get babies and also the reason/a way to control men. Access to a sexual partner, intimacy, gaining love, the very strong inclination/instinct (sorry to use that term) of men to shelter, protect, provide can turn a situation from chaos and debauchery to immediate nest building and focus on hearth and home. Rick said as much to Michonne. "We get some kinda life." He is so willing to manage that threat right now, to get a chance at that life. Negan is certainly going to see why Rick was so motivated to eliminate the threat and find a way to have access to food. Rick has a real family, counting/depending on him; and is/was working to grow that family. When Negan sees that Rick is with Michonne, he will be tripping all over himself with some kinda "guy talk" to know whether or not they intend to try for a baby...he is sure to know Michonne is not Judith or Carl's biological mom. How can I say this?... I think he killed Abe and Glenn for other reasons, I just hate to think it. The creatives seem to be trying to shift him a bit from the comic. The Saviors didn't kill the women from the Oceanside community, he has all those "wives", he controls who has sex (right?). It is becoming more and more about the future, so he, too, is thinking about babies. Now, I get a real sense that Negan is trying to "recruit" or "convert" Rick into his twisted view of the world. But, the Rick-way pushes out all other ways. His, Rick's way, is superior. That is why, to me, now, the separating of Team Family...'cause the Rick-way goes with them and will surplant all other ways. Voila--The Rick-Way is the way of the Next/New World. The Negan Generals will be looking to see how he handles Rick...'cause Rick is something serious and eva'body know. I started ranging far-a-field here. My bad. Just so interesting, where they seem to want to take the story. It is difficult for them to tie it together, connect all the dots. The Negan thing is really a Rick thing...that is obvious without TWD being Rick's story. Negan got it bad for Rick. Negan got Rick on his mind all the time...he in love with the Rick-Rick! (Of course, I don't mean in the romantic sense, lol, just in the sense that it is critical for Negan to bring Rick to heel. If he doesn't, he knows his little set up will be facing the beginning of the end.) I'm sorry this is so long. I don't know what came over me!
     
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  3. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    What are you saying? That besides Rick, Negan left the wimp, the gay guy and the boy with one eye. Men who do not challenge his sense of superiority or necessarily as Gregory put it in Knots untie:

    S6.E11
    Gregory: I don't know if Craig's worth the trouble. I mean, it's his brother who did this.
    Maggie: He was fighting to save someone he loves. He was afraid.
    Gregory: That makes him weak. Frankly, I don't know if I want him back in our gene pool.

    This reminds me of that age old classic theme of the person hearing a prophesy of their demise does all in their power to avoid the fate only to have their very own actions seal their fate. If Negan hadn't put on such a Shock and Awe display for Rick the Ricktocracy could have been contained and tolerated. But by coming on "too strong" Negan ended up dispersing Rickology further and wider than Rick ever could have done... even if he ever wanted to. Negan blew a gale force wind onto a dandelion and now those seeds a taking root even with out the guardianship of Rick.

    I have said all along that "I get it" what TPTB are trying to do I'm just pissed to go several episodes with out seeing Rick and Michonne.
     
    #3 Barbarossa-TWD, Dec 3, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
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  4. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Lol, I feel on the Rick and Michonne deficit. Yes, to my point about Abe and Glenn. I am not one of the writers, but this shift of the Negan character, explains the two deaths--if he has some twisted worldview he is trying to refine, the word he used to Rick about their "relationship", then getting Rick to be , or so he thinks, dependent on him for security, is his only real leverage. That's why he came to ASZ right away, so they (TF) couldn't regroup. Negan has Intel on and insight into Rick's group, but he doesn't know/realize they are extremely resourceful and devoted to each other. He (Negan) can see the video, but he did not hear Rick's words the night they left the farm (" building a life for each other") or Hershel's words to Glenn about having faith and believing, didn't see what they did in that church to avenge their friend. (I was so worried about him having that video of the interviews, but, talked myself down, lol.). Negan doesn't understand the Rick-way. So killing Glenn and Abe, help me Holy Ghost, to him, eliminated Rick's strongest and smartest, Eugene's is intelligent, but he is not smart like Glenn--thinking on his feet, considerting every option in real time. That skill is invaluable. Then, if Negan knows anything about the Abe, Rosita, Sasha situation, even an inkling...Abe had basically done what he is doing with his "harem" on a small scale and without threats and coercion--Rosita and Sasha wanted him. Glenn and Abe, strong, smart, loyal, and men with women who loved them. I know he (Negan) has an interest in making babies. The creatives won't leave it alone...there is a reason. I just get th impression that Negan feels a little bit desperate. He thinks that making Rick afraid to loise anymore of his family, will keep him under control. The spoilkers indicate Negan will touch Judith. The idea of Negan having access to Judith is going to be too much for Rick to tolerate. Carl well tell him about the women. In Negan's system, Judith would be subject to that probability, with somebody, eww. That's a tennant of Negan's philosophy. His remark about Michonne...his meaning, "I could take her, but I won't. At least, not this time. See, I'm nice. Say 'thank you'". Anyway, anyway, lol, Negan has let his doom in by the front door. The thing with girls is the line with the men in TF. The creatives have been saying it it some way every season...now, we see why. From Shane at the quarry with the Ed/Carol/Sophia situation and his behavior with Lori at the CDC, to Randall's story--(Hershel's comment, "I want him away from my daughters.") the Gov. with Maggie, his plans for Michonne, the Claimers, what happened at Terminus that " turned" them, the implication of what happened with Abe's wife, the unseemly mess with Pete and Jessie, therefore, Rick, all about violating women, and that is a big, giant no-no with Team Family men. The Rick-way reveres women...holds them (family life) as the only reason to go forward: "making a life." literally (babies) and figuratively. Sorry, I 'm doing it again! I hope this is not too cuckoo.
     
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  5. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    So do you think that the Saviors were setting up the Oceanside women to be part of his harem?

    S7.E.4
    Negan: Widows, especially ones that look like that...they...are special.
    I love 'em.
    Right after their husbands go, they are just... empty side.

    I've read some speculations that Cyndie's mom may be in the Sanctuary harem. If so that would be the motivation to get Oceanside to join TF vs Negan. I think it has to come from with in and no matter Tara won't be able to convince them.

    This is interesting because most assume that it must be a big act to get Rick on the defensive again. But when he realises that no matter what he can't assure his families safety with Negan he'll turn. Going back to the fantasy picnic it really did look like Carl and Enid were hiding Judith. I didn't even realise that Judith was at the table until I read it here. I'm wondering if Carl takes Judith to the Hilltop and hides out with her and Enid giving Rick and Michonne space to prepare for battle.

    YES!!!

    No matter what women aren't safe at the Sanctuary. They are either raped in the harem or fight like the men. But we saw that in the Same Boat the fighter saviour women seemed to be in "relationships" still as a means of protection. Chelle hated her "boyfriend" but still risked getting a finger cut off to find him. We have to ask why she was so desperate to find a guy she didn't even like. Also, what happened to her baby? Does Negan only allow babies in a two parent situation... is that why Chelle was desperate to find the father of her child? What going to happen to the red headed man's woman and baby? He was killed because he didn't have enough points to feed his family...what's going to happen to them now. Is Negan enforcing a patriarchy?
     
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  6. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I don't know how to break up the posts. Your point about Chelle and her "boyfriend"...I thought maybe she miscarried her pregnancy. Didn't think that maybe the baby was taken. Could he have forced her to abort the pregnany? Wow, how awful on both possibilities. And, yes, having a man so they are somewhat off limits to being in the harem or offered up to someone even worse than who they "chose." I feel like this tawdry situation with the women in Negan's sphere, is going to be front and center with the build up to critical mass. Judith is a baby, could he take her to give to one of his "wives" to create a "family*? Many people have lost their children. (Remember Beth's question to Michonne about a name for people who have lost a child?) He is so crazy, he might do some foolishness like that. Take Judith to recreate what Rick has. ('Cause I think he shootin' blanks...while he trying to pick at Dwight. Aside: Who would tell something like that?). Hiding her wouldn't work, would it? He would find out and do God-knows-what to punish them.
    I absolutely think he was kind of prepping the women of Oceanside for"harem-life". If Cyndi's mom was forced to go to the un-Santuary to save her remaining child and mother, it would make sense. (Maybe he knows this about widows, which he created, the bastard, because he has experienced it, and more than once--I hate him.) Beatrice was traumatized by what happened. You know they were asll family: dads, husbands, brothers, sons. I have an idea that they are still searching for them. Negan needs the women...there are so many men in his group. I don't think he realized what a mess he created by gathering all those hardlegs into his group. Good for threatening and intimidating people, not so much for trying to bring back civilization. Women and children stabilize men. Otherwise, men as just roving bands of cutthroats and marauders, circa, the Claimers...yuck. Women will settle if any child is involved, create a space to rear children. He his an educated man, he understands that. I have so many thoughts about all this with the women. It is deeper than appears.
     
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  7. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    BTW to copy bits of a post instead of clicking the reply button just highlight the part you want then its own reply button will appear. You can do this several times and even from different posts.
     
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  8. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    Thanks for the tech info. I need a manual: Posting for Dummies.
     
  9. Katbird

    Katbird Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I hope this is where the mistaken identity of the comic comes into play. Except, it's not Rick's girlfriend that's not clear to Senor Psychopath, but Judith, whose she is, her parents. It would even be a clever play on the actual situation with Judith's parents. If they/he (Rick) tells Negan her bio parents are dead, it is the truth. He all ready gave voice to that fact when he told Michonne about Shane and Lori. Carl would say she is his sister, though. I just think, hope he clams up, goes mum. That could be a little risky though, Negan might think he can take her or, on the other hand, he could get more neverous about who he can use to keep Rick in line. Michonne? Carl? Judith? Daryl? I made my own self neverous!
     
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  10. Barbarossa-TWD

    Barbarossa-TWD Ricktator

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    Yeah I think you are on to something, I don't think they would have dropped Judith's bio just for Rick to pull Michonne's heartstrings. Carl is definitely hiding Judith at the picnic table

    [​IMG]

    Judith doesn't even have her own plate or chair and she is wearing Carl's hat.
     
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