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Was there really a choice? Democracy?

Discussion in '6x12: Not Tomorrow Yet' started by tuswig, Mar 7, 2016.

  1. tuswig

    tuswig Bitch Slayer

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    So I kept mulling over whether or not there was really a choice to attack the Saviors, and initially I thought "Yes, Rick gave everyone a choice. He gave his spiel and everyone agreed to move forward (so when shit hits the fan, no one can put the blame squarely on him)." and while I still believe that it would be unfair to only blame Rick for the events that has and will continue to unfold as a result of the attack, I am no longer sure that the members of Team Family (who wasn't at Hilltop) and the Alexandrians really had a choice in the first place. I was watching a YouTube review of the episode, and I was reminded that Maggie already made the deal with Gregory to take out Negan and the Saviors in exchange for half of their food BEFORE this was brought to everyone else for a decision. The decision was already made, Rick and company just needed buy in from everyone else, and he did a pretty good job selling it. Perhaps, I need to rewatch this scene but did Rick mention that the deal was already made with Hilltop to take out the Saviors? On the surface, it looked like the decision was a democratic one but it really wasn't. The community is desperate for food, Rick kept emphasizing this throughout the episode ("This is how we eat") to sort of motivate everyone to follow through. I need to get the transcript of Rick's speech, but I didn't get the sense that any objections to the plan would be welcomed and appreciated (although he said it would be). There is a reason why Tara looked very uncomfortable in the church (Rick reminded her of the Governor and attacking the Saviors didn't really sound like a choice), I am also convinced that Michonne and Glenn looked uneasy too, but unfortunately they didn't say anything (perhaps because they couldn't think of any other solutions).

    I am curious to hear everyone's thoughts on this. Was there ever really a choice on whether or not to attack the Saviors? This is not about Rick hate #1 I am always Team Rick and very protective of this character #2 Maggie made the deal, so I believe that she should bear some of the responsibility (if not most of it)
     
  2. WalkerVoodoo

    WalkerVoodoo Michonne's Shadow
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    I don't think so. Rick said it was a group decisions but like you said the deal was already struck by that point.

    On top of that even though Rick asked for everyone's input he got pretty snarky with Morgan when he did just that. I have no problem with Rick arguing his point to Morgan but the little quip he made on his way out about "You don't have to kill people but if you're gonna live here you have to be willing to accept it' or something similar, seemed like he was saying fall in line or get out.
     
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  3. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I think Rick got snarky with Morgan because Morgan's plan was dumb. Morgan didn't hear what kind of people the Saviors were (unless Rick told them). It just wasn't a good idea.

    As for choice? I do think there was one. I think had more people or a lot of people had voiced dissent, they would have backed off. They would have just had to return the goods.

    It was a democratic decision, but since they already had the goods -- it was hard for them to just let go what they already had in their grasp.

    Nicotero also made a point of emphasizing it was a group decision, and not just Rick. Yeah, Rick talked up his plan and pushed for it, but everyone did agree with it. His job was to be convincing.
     
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  4. Ship Verse

    Ship Verse I.D.G.A.F.
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    Well I still think it was a choice that if enough people were against it, they would not have gone through with it. The deal was made, but Jesus was also there, they could have aborted the plan and gone about their day. I think Rick did a hell of a job in pushing and directing people to see his point of view but it was still a choice. Morgan stood up but no one backed him. Aaron stood up and backed Rick. Everyone in that church had a moment to say their peace. It takes balls to stand up against Rick, and they are all scared do to what they've been through, but this is the world, and they trust the guy who is leading them.
     
  5. Bazooka Jane

    Bazooka Jane On a pirate ship
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    It was a technical choice, they all or most of them could have said no, but the deck was stacked for a yes: the food was right in there in their grasps, the deal was already made, most of the Alexandrians didn't even have to go (was any Alexandrian there other than Heath and Aaron?). Rick's logic in terms of "they are going to find us eventually if we don't starve first" is sound, too. So, "yes" was the easy and obvious choice.
    Michonne was feeling uneasy with it only because her guts was giving her alarm bells but without telling WHAT was wrong with the plan, so she just rolled with it anyway (quite a change from when her gut told her The Governor was bad news and she said as much to Andrea, even though she could not say exactly why she thought so). I just think Glenn and Heath were nervous about killing rather than against the plan.
     
    #5 Bazooka Jane, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
  6. Misty Knight

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    I keep thinking this whole situation is similar to how the U.S. handles foreign threats. Elective officials weren't given all the details of who was behind the 9/11 attack, but a vote was still made; a democratic process still happen even though in hindsight it was a costly decision that is still affecting us to this day.

    Rick sold it well, but he didn't give them the complete story, BUT I still don't think anyone besides Morgan would have objected if they knew a deal had already been struck.

    Oh and I mourn the death of Rick and Morgan's friendship. It's sad and I hope they reach some type of understanding.
     
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  7. Belle

    Belle Perpetual notion machine - what if...
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    I don't think they had a choice about whether to execute the plan. But, I do think they had a choice about how they would execute the plan. Morgan wanted to achieve the goal of getting the hostage back and break the tyrannical hold Negan has on the HIlltop using diplomacy. Rick had a military approach. More options would have been nice, but I have to admit - Rick's plan was well executed. If they had given themselves more time to plan, maybe they would have done more to monitor the perimeter better.
     
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  8. WalkerVoodoo

    WalkerVoodoo Michonne's Shadow
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    I can't think of any scenario where Rick would be fine with not attacking the Saviors. I think at that point Rick knew that that was something that needed to be done and wasn't going to back down. Backing down would have meant not only putting the community at risk but his family at risk. He's already seen what happens first hand when you ignore a threat in your backyard, and I honestly can't see him falling for that again.

    I think the choice offered to the Alexandrians came down to two things, you have a choice to join the fight or stay back and you have the opportunity to come up with a new plan if you don't agree with the one we have now.
     
  9. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I agree that was the choice offered, but that is still fair and overall I would say they still had a choice. They could choose to participate, or not, and then they had the opportunity to come up with another plan (just no one did save Morgan and his plan was terribad).
     
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  10. Clutterbuck

    Clutterbuck Finding Bigfoot™
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    Of course there was a choice. If everyone said "no" was Rick going to go himself with Jesus and Andy? Rick didn't force anyone to go. He gave everyone a chance to speak their minds and offer input and the only one who did was Morgan with "Let's go talk to the group of ruthless thugs!" These are adults with working vocal cords, if they felt uneasy or had other opinions they should open their mouths. If you don't speak up that's on you, but that's just my nature, I can be pretty tactless and have no problem speaking my mind.

    I took Rick's comment to Morgan as he was leaving as "You don't have to like it, but this is the way it is." And that's true, these things are happening and you don't have to be part of it but you've got to deal with the fact that it's going on.
     
    #10 Clutterbuck, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
  11. Silas

    Silas Beloved Side Piece
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    Do I think Rick would've cheered had someone objected in a less condescending way than Morgan? No. But I do think if anyone had chose to sit out, he would've been okay with it. Speaking of Morgan, he even told the man to at least be okay with the killing. So that's it - that's his only requirement. Be okay with the evil deeds they have to do, you don't even have to participate. There's a big difference between sitting out and then judging those who don't. Morgan is sitting back there side eyeing everyone and I don't think it's something Rick appreciates. You don't wanna help? Fine. You wanna judge me? Not fine.

    So yeah, I do think there was a choice. Was there a sense of duty probably felt to help the family despite personal misgivings? Absolutely. But well...that's just life. In a sense, life has given them no choice. It sucks, they don't want to do it, but I think they all felt like they had to. Not because of Rick or because the deal had been already made, but because they wanted to keep their loved ones safe.

    Even Tara - who had misgivings, I felt, was a bit more relieved when Jesus reminded her what she was fighting for.

    In my mind, Rick's constant reminders and pep talks were more like a way to build his people up. That's what a leader does in my opinion. I don't think it was his way of reminding them they had to. Like "hey if you don't do this, you'll starve." But more like "C'mon guys...this is how we eat!" He's like that voice in your ear that's reminding you why you gotta take care of your responsibilities. He's re-enforcing reasons for the purpose of easing your mind, not to twist your arm into submission.
     
    #11 Silas, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016