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What happened to the Rick of 6.10???

Discussion in '6x15: East' started by tuswig, Mar 28, 2016.

  1. tuswig

    tuswig Bitch Slayer
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    Is anyone else confused by what the writers are doing to Rick's character...again? In 6.10, Rick was zen, chill, optimistic, damn near peppy. He was talking about "the law of averages" (very similar to Morgan's "everything gets a return" mantra) and telling Daryl how he was right about the importance of bringing in more people into the community, giving people chances. Then he encounters "Jesus" and after a wild goose chase, he, along with Daryl, brings him back to Alexandria, gets him medical care and even left a little cute note for him. Remember, Rick was the one to convince Daryl to bring Jesus back.

    Yet a few episodes later we're getting the "I don't take chances anymore Rick". Well sparing Jesus's life and bringing him back into Alexandria, where your loved ones live, was a big chance, so what has changed??? And no, it can't be the threat of the Saviors, because, once again that was another chance Rick willingly took, and even before that in 6.10 Rick couldn't possibly be naive enough to think that there were no more threats in the surrounding area. Also, am I really suppose to believe that the Rick that was presented to me in 6.10 really thought that killing two INNOCENT SICK PEOPLE WHILE IN QUARANTINE was the right thing to do because the Rick I saw in this most recent episode thinks so and apparently would do the dirty deed himself. We are getting two completely different people. The writers have made Rick a walking contradiction and to make it worse....as a Richonne die hard it sucks to say this but even the love of Michonne (right now) has yet to level him out a bit and she hasn't "checked" Rick either...the only person doing that is Morgan and Carol (her questioning why Maggie was guarding the perimeter).
     
    #1 tuswig, Mar 28, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
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  2. Bazooka Jane

    Bazooka Jane On a pirate ship
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    I had the same thoughts, and the only think I can come up with is that for all his bravado, Rick really is worried about the Saviors. They aren't a vague threat, or a familiar threat like walkers, they are very real, kind of mysterious, and they are coming for them. He might have the tiniest bit of doubt over getting involved with this whole thing but he's covering it up with "We'll win; we have to" and being super agressive. The two months of peace and falling in love only adds to his determination in the face an on coming storm because he knows how good it can be once real & present danger is put to bed, and he wants to finish it NOW. As for the Karen/David thing, I don't agree with him but I guess he's retroactively thinking of the outbreak in the same way he's thinking of the Saviors: a real danger to the hopeful life he's built that needed to be squashed post haste. So he would be down with doing anything to remove the danger, even that.

    Really, what's about to fuck Rick over is not his hubris, but his desparation.
     
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  3. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    This is the only way I can justify the inconsistency too. Rick is puffing himself up. He's gone into "murder mode" since 6.11. In 6.10 that was after a respite.

    But yeah. It is whiplash. And inconsistent for the sake of Gimple's whims. Rick's characterization was sabotaged to prop up Carol.
     
  4. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I would agree with this if the writers didn't have him doing the same routine with Michonne in their private room. Michonne is the one person that Rick have always been open about his fears with, even while showing the world no fear. But now, he is laying in bed with her telling her that "the world is ours"????!!!. And Michonne not checking him is problematic for me. But at the same time, we have been asking for flaws for Michonne. This might be the way the writes are showing us her flaws.

    Honestly, since they came up with the plan to go kill the Saviors before they came after them without doing any investigation to find out who they were dealing with, I have been worry about the way the narrative of this story have been shaping up. The narrative that these people are brutal arrogant killers who believe that they kill their way out of any problems without trouble. It almost feels like the writers are trying to make the audience feel a certain level of TF deserves what is coming to them because of their arrogance.

    Last night I hated the way the writers wrote Rick. It say something about a leader who is okay and actually agree with members of their group being kill of by one of their own, when that member is weak. The foundation of a group, especially in the time they are living in, is trust. Trust that when I'm sleeping, sick and in a weak state, you won't kill me. Trust that if something causes me to be a burden to the group, you won't just kill me. Carol violated that trust so deeply when she killed Karen and David. Rick saying he agrees with her and would do the same now, makes me wonder why in hell should anyone but Michonne, Glenn, Morgan, Carl, Daryl and Carol trust him or follow him. Because base on that statement, it seems like Rick doesn't have a problem killing anyone outside of those he loves for the sake of the "greater good ".

    If the writes wanted to show us the change in Rick now from before, they could have simply had him say, he understood now why Carol felt compel to do what she did. But it still wasn't right because it violate the basic foundation in a group like theirs.

    I have more to say but honestly, last night episode was not a shining moment for Rick as character or a leader.
     
    #4 SevenStars, Mar 28, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
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  5. MamaGrimes

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    To be honest, I think 6.10 was an indulgence for Andy and Norman to have a 'caper' episode and he was most out of character in that episode. Since then he's returned to the sleeping tiger that always resides inside of him. Yes he's hopeful since Carl survived his injury and the town pulled together against the walkers but at his core he's ready to murder as needed.

    And let's not forget that he's in love once again so he has even more to lose. I actually think last night's episode showed both sides of him very well and displayed how he's balancing love and light with death and the darkness.
     
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  6. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I would agree with this, except his statement to Morgan about Carol's action cross a line for me. It is the type of thing I would expect to hear from the Governor or Negan, not Rick.

    It truly blurred the line between Rick and those villains he is fighting against.
     
  7. Iguessiamhere

    Iguessiamhere Survivor of Many Disasters
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    Maybe this goes along with Andy said about ramifications of their relationship. Rick in love and in warrior mode taking no chances, doing anything to protect his family. Writing check that he can't cash "the world is our". The arrogance in that statement. Michonne also in love support Rick because she too don't want to lose what they have. She probably ignoring her instincts because Rick has pull through before. Yeah don't forget she still with him, even more so now.
     
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  8. tuswig

    tuswig Bitch Slayer
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    My sentiments exactly! Thank you for articulating these observations better than I could! In the comics Rick arrogance and bravado during this specific arc was 100% legit which leads me to believe the same for the show as well. I mentioned in the Unpopular Opinion thread that "the world is ours" line ruined the Richonne bed scene for me, it really did. Michonne was relaying Maggie's concerns about being attacked and I feel like Rick was very chill about it, too chill "When they come, they come, we got this". No, you and your group has taken out 30+ of the Saviors, there will be retribution for that....that shouldn't be taken lightly. At that point I even think Rick still believed that he killed Negan because we never even got a scene of Carol telling Rick that all of the Saviors claims to be Negan. The one thing Morgan said to Rick in this episode that I completely agreed with was "You started something". Rick and his group started a war...over food.

    Before Richonne went canon Michonne always "checked" Rick, love is NOT making her weak but I'm getting the feeling that Michonne may be getting a tad too confident (like Rick) or her love for Rick is propelling her to support her man over checking him...or maybe it's a combination of all these things. I still do believe that she seemed uneasy about the Saviors attack mission but she held back because she wasn't able to offer a better solution at the time.

    I'll be honest when Negan takes vengeance on Rick and the group it will be well deserved. I know it sounds harsh, but when you at everything objectively, Rick and his people were the antagonists in this situation. Even Paula told Carol, what happened to the one group of the Saviors out on the road is one thing (it was truly self defense) but killing people in their sleep, that's entirely different.

    And finally, yes, Rick could have shown support for Carol as a "family" member without retracting on his own morals, it was completely unnecessary and I lost a little bit of respect for him.
     
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  9. MamaGrimes

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    Yeah, I hear you. I'm not sure what the motivation was for that conversation to be honest. It almost looks like they're tying up Carol's storyline to kill her off, which I still think may happen next season. It could be Rick is upping his kill game in preparation for war and it may have come out of his very real worry for his friend who he was looking for. I've long since given up what Gimple thinks when he plans these arcs.
     
  10. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Rick's arrogance is really only irksome because we know what is coming down the pipe. From Rick's POV, his group has not only handled the Saviors with aplomb so far, but also a massive herd of walkers, the Wolves, an entire cannibal deathcamp, Woodbury's army, the Claimers, etc. While they've suffered losses, their enemies always come out so much worse.

    Alexandria has become well-fortified. They have a stockpile of weapons. Rick and Michonne had just made love. He was feeling all "on top of the world." I think the moment was meant to be a little jarring because, as the audience, we know this isn't over. But Rick? He really has no way of knowing. Even if it's not, he feels confident in his group to handle whatever comes their way.

    The same thing happened in the comic. Rick was arrogant, he thought the Saviors would be no big deal, and Negan took him by surprise in a massive way. Rick was blind-sided. That's what made Negan so absolutely terrifying.

    Negan slapping Rick around isn't going to have the same sting to it unless we see Rick feeling cocky. It's the "pride before the fall". Hubris.

    I'm just glad they gave so much of the blame to Daryl; it will make what happens next so much easier to swallow. Rick is cocky, sure, but he's not the one who got this ball rolling. Daryl did -- in every way.

    1) Daryl is the one who came up with the plan.
    2) Daryl is the one who understated the threat of the Saviors (Abe backed him up)
    3) Daryl is the one who ran off, which wound up getting all of them in trouble.

    All Rick did was agree with Daryl's plan, convinced Maggie to make the deal, and roll with it. He also put it up to a democratic vote.
     
  11. tuswig

    tuswig Bitch Slayer
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    I hated that line and to make it worse Rick meant it because he doesn't bs Michonne. Rick and his group has had some major victories, but every good leader knows that you should never underestimate your enemy. They're about to be humbled, which for them will be a good thing because it will make them stronger and more importantly wiser. But back to your point about Michonne, yes, I definitely think she is ignoring some of her instincts and after Negan kills one of their own, she will never make that mistake again.
     
  12. tuswig

    tuswig Bitch Slayer
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    UGH, the fact that Daryl has his hands all over this, just means a bigger storyline for him next season...great.
     
  13. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Like, being real, if Rick was acting all level-headed, and "let's play it safe", and came up with secure plans, exercising caution, playing it humble and "we must always be vigilant", then Negan bitch-slapping his ass wouldn't carry the same dramatic irony. The entire point of Negan is that it's a moment where Rick lands squarely on his face.

    If Rick had played it safe, not been so cocky, then Negan wouldn't come across like a man knocking Rick down a peg -- but rather like a threat that Rick estimated correctly, but was just outgunned. It wouldn't mean the same thing.

    I don't like seeing Rick act a fool either, but I know why they had it go down that way.
     
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  14. Silas

    Silas Eating 112 oz. of Pudding
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    I think they have a bad habit of building Rick up only to tear him down. Whatever side of the fence he's standing (rather that's farmer Rick or Murder Coat Rick) him (and the audience) usually gets about one episode to think he's finally gotten it right. It's crossed my mind that we're about to start the cycle over...the proof being in a cocky Rick.

    It also worried me that Morgan told Rick that one day all the killing will get to him. Sounded like foreshadowing and if I have to watch Rick's world views flip flop one more time I might drink myself into the grave. So what, next season is Rick gonna claim all life is precious and then recant that killing Karen and David was right??? How many times can we do this?

    But yeah, for the most part I think they're intentionally building Rick's arrogance up so that surrender will sting like a bitch. Build him up, tear him down. Build him up, tear him down. The man never gets to get it right. But overall (and not really on topic) I am starting to worry that Morgan's words could be predicting something else that'll happen way down the road...Rick struggling yet again with killing. Also, the way Rick softened up towards Morgan right before they departed seems like Morgan might be wearing him down.
     
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  15. Chaos

    Chaos Richonne 2KForever
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    Ricks arrogance isn't a result of Rick being a classic asshole or just being cocky, it's a result of that dumbass named Daryl. Daryl and Abe were the ones that were there when they got attacked by the Saviors, not Rick. Rick is just going by what he was told. If Rick wad told that Negan is the "boogeyman" by our beloved genius Daryl and wasn't told the truth then what is he supposed to do??? Obviously he's not going to think that Negan is the badass we all know he is because he trusts Daryl to be honest with him. Daryl wasn't, he downplayed how powerful Negan is, and he should be blamed for this mess and most definitely not Rick.
     
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  16. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    I think Rick is just a little bit behind Carol in the being worn down department. Already we're seeing some signs Rick is cracking:
    1) When he reverted to "nesting" mode in 6.10, he was very soft with Jesus; even wrote him a little care note. He didn't want to kill him, even though Jesus had attacked them (though fairly non-violently) and stolen their cargo.
    2) When Rick plunged the knife into the Savior's skull, the look on his face conveyed some self-revulsion.
    3) When Rick killed Pete under Deanna's order in 5.16, I always thought he had this sort of doll-like look in his eyes -- like he was just on autopilot.
    4) Rick looked contemplative at Morgan's words; I do think it's beginning to sink in.

    I think in so many ways, Rick has convinced himself this is how he needs to live. He puffs out his chest, makes all these arrogant declarations, to cover up a deep-seated insecurity. Like Morgan keeps saying, under it all, Rick is still the same guy from Kings County. One day, I do think it's going to catch up to Rick.

    Now, I don't think that means Rick will go entirely soft into some zen-like ninja turtle practicing his moves in the front lawn; but I think he'll reach a point where he doesn't want to shank a fool unless necessary. So he won't go full Morgan, and I don't think he'll freak-out quite like Carol has (since I do think Carol is partially fueled by religious guilt). He'll carry the guilt silently and remedy how he operates moving forward.

    He's made peace with the fact he has this capacity to kill, but the act of it, the actual stripping away of human lives -- I don't think he's sat down to contemplate it all too much. Who could? No one wants to think about it.

    Also I think that would be a healthy place for Rick to get toward -- killing when necessary, but sparing lives when he can. That's how it should be in civilized society. Ultimately, I do think Rick wants to return to civilization.
     
  17. Silas

    Silas Eating 112 oz. of Pudding
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    For the most part I agree. I just dread him not killing Negan (even though I knew it was coming) and him, as always, being two steps behind other folks. It results in him pretty much always looking wrong which makes me cry bitter tears.
     
  18. Doctor Grimes

    Doctor Grimes Not Your Governor
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    Yeah, I know. But I don't think this is so much Rick being "wrong"; heck, we know full-well Morgan isn't right either. So far no one has seemingly reached that balance of killing when necessary but sparing when able. Maybe Glenn is finally there, but since Glenn is in the group, he hasn't been in a position until 612 where he had to kill.

    We know sparing Negan is coming, but I hope the writers pull the rug out from us and have someone kill his ass. It doesn't even have to be Rick. It can be Carl. I just want Negan gone after this is all said and done.
     
  19. Silas

    Silas Eating 112 oz. of Pudding
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    If they kill Negan instead of stuffing him that cell I'll shit and fall back in it. But with a smile.

    Also what I forgot to say, I still worry about the overall flip flopity-ness. For lack of a better term. Regardless of who is right or when, by the time one character accepts a new view on killing...something happens to teach them the opposite. Rather that be not to take chances and be brutal or to only kill when they have to.

    Especially since there really is no right answer and they'll likely never find a perfectly happy medium. I guess...is what I meant.
     
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  20. SevenStars

    SevenStars Awaiting Job from Deanna

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    I agree with you for the most part. The problem I have with this is that Rick have not done anything to find out anything about Savoirs. He just killed some and assume it's all done without checking to make sure that was all there was.

    So there is not only a level of arrogance, which you explained perfectly but also stupidity in not doing more checking after killing all those people.
     
    #20 SevenStars, Mar 28, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016