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When Did Shane Decide to Kill Rick?

Discussion in 'Don't Dead, Open Inside' started by Armte, Feb 1, 2016.

  1. Armte

    Armte Schadenfreude is my Aesthetic
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    Rick and Shane before the ZA had a beautiful friendship (since High School), they referred to each other as brothers. There relationship was damaged after the ZA when Shane told Lori that Rick was dead and then he started a sexual relationship with her. Rick returned and over time he said he forgave Shane but Shane couldn't let go of Lori and once he found out she was pregnant his obsession ratcheted up to a new level.

    This is a debate thread, please share your thoughts on when you think Shane decided to kill Rick and the reasons why.

    I think the idea may have always been in the back of Shane's mind after killing Otis and shaving his head. I felt that whole scene in the bathroom was to illustrate Shane was a different man in the ZA (one that would do whatever it takes for his family). However I think he finally made the decision after his talk with Lori when she told him to stay and that she did not know who the baby's father was. I think Shane felt that was Lori telling him that she and the baby needed him.

    Thanks to @Tater for the idea after a discussion we were having in another thread.
     
    #1 Armte, Feb 1, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
  2. Tater

    Tater Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    I do think there was a part of Shane that wanted to kill Rick from the very get go. Dale did see him aim a gun at Rick in the woods. The reason I think it was the Randall reveal was because Shane, as messed up as he is, really needed to believe that he was killing Rick for a good reason, i.e., Rick's decisions would get Lori and Carl killed. I think that's why he used Randall to test that theory. He wanted to see whether Randall was a shit just as Shane had thought and letting him go would have been a deadly mistake. That confirmation is what convinced Shane that he was in the right to kill Rick. I'm not saying he wouldn't have gotten there, but I do wonder if Randall had been an innocent, whether Shane would have gone through with his plan.
     
  3. ashandi

    ashandi Waiting for Rick and Michonne to adopt me..
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    I definitely agree that Shane started to crack the minute he saw Rick was alive. Psychologically, that must have been a lot to deal with. I mean there's a Zombie Apocalypse. You believed your best friend to be dead. You begin a relationship with your best friends wife and adopt his family as your own. Then all of a sudden your best friend isn't so dead anymore and you lose basically everything. And to Shane that was HIS family. Rick came back and took away what Shane believed to be rightfully his. Even if he wasn't fully aware of it, subconsciously he wanted Rick gone from that moment.
     
  4. Latrice

    Latrice Watchtower Sniper
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    I may be the outsider in this, but I don't think that Shane and Rick had the best friendship before the ZA. When I say that, I mean it like on a subconscious level in that sense that Shane likely always wanted something that Rick had. I don't know their backstory completely but it always felt like Rick was the guy that got everything that Shane could have wanted and I think overtime that resentment would have shown regardless on the ZA.

    I think Shane got the idea that Rick needed go when Rick and the group came back from Atlanta. Rick leaving for Atlanta was the most anyone had questioned Shane and then when the walkers attacked I think that was the moment that Shane decided Rick was prepared for this new world.
     
  5. DCBABY

    DCBABY Nestled in Rick's Beard

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    When did Shane decide to kill Rick? Sometime between this:
    [​IMG]

    And this:
    [​IMG]

    Don't forget, Shane was had the gun sights trained on Rick a day or two after he found the group...which gave us our first Dale stare.

    [​IMG]

    Rick was gone for about 45 days, if the timetables are correct. While he was in the hospital, Shane became Lori's rock. Once the ZA began, he became the man of the household in every way - taking care to provide food, water, protection and leadership. He also, secretly took the position of lover. When Rick returned, Shane was not about to give up HIS FAMILY to a man who (I believe Shane felt) didn't appreciate Lori in the old world and wasn't equipped to live in the new one (endangering the group making the run and going back to save Merle and not being around to save people at the camp).
     
  6. Tater

    Tater Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    [​IMG]
     
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  7. CrownRoyale

    CrownRoyale Slopping Pigs

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    Maybe a thread should be made, but I think Shane knew that he was going to kill Rick after a conversation that he has with Lori. Shane is basically stating that he knows that she never shared his feelings and he's going to move on. At the end of the talk between the two of them, Lori basically tells Shane that she does have feelings for him.

    I think Lori admitting to her feelings for Shane combined with the fact that he thought he could take care of her and Carl better than Rick led to him trying to kill Rick.
     
  8. raramama

    raramama Eating 112 oz. of Pudding
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    I agree with this. I think it was gradual progression but Lori put the nail in the coffin a bit more.

    A true villian doesn't see themselves as a villian. They see themselves as doing what needs to be done - Shane felt enought guilt about Poor Otis to shave his hair off in some sort of rite of passage (and it's the one place Otis touched before he died). However, he also resigned himself to the fact that hard choices would need to be made in the new ZA world. And he did not see Rick as having the balls to be that. Shane was complicated character, I think he both admired Rick's goodness and resented him at the same time. His best friend had become a thorn in his side that needed to go. Not to mention he felt he would put Lori and Carl in harms way.
     
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  9. raramama

    raramama Eating 112 oz. of Pudding
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    Thank you for moving my post here admins! You guys rock!
     
  10. Armte

    Armte Schadenfreude is my Aesthetic
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    No problem, we aim to please here.
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. CrownRoyale

    CrownRoyale Slopping Pigs

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    You bring up a very good point and one thing that I always wondered. Shane and Lori entering into a relationship, not just sex but a secret relationship, so soon after Rick "died" always made me wonder what their relationship was like when Rick wasn't looking. I agree that I think Shane always wanted a family of his own, maybe even Lori to be his wife, and you can tell from some of the things that the two talked about, that Shane was the bad boy while Rick did everything right (ie. get a job, marry, have a kid, buy a house etc.).

    Also Rick being the good guy, would automatically place him in the role of "go to guy" and the man that people would listen to. For the (I assume) first time in Shane's life he was the guy that people listened to, he was the leader now. IMO when Shane is aiming the gun at Rick, that is more about his jealousy that Rick came back and the group was already listening to him within a day. Shane wanted that back, and he contemplated murdering Rick to get it back. So yeah it is possible that Shane had some jealousy where Rick was concerned before the ZA.
     
  12. Tater

    Tater Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    I always assumed there was an attraction there, but I never thought either did anything about it, mainly because of Lori. I do think if Lori showed that she was up for it, Shane would have totally been on board, whether Rick was in a coma or not.
     
  13. Armte

    Armte Schadenfreude is my Aesthetic
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    In my head I want Shane to be a better man and the ZA is what changed him but I don't know, his love for Lori was deep. Plus I do believe Lori loved Shane, her reaction to Rick's confession that he killed Shane was so strong. She would not even let Rick touch her and I think Rick realized it as well and that's why Rick completely shut down. I think they had a mutual attraction that neither one acted on while Rick was alive.
     
  14. Butler36

    Butler36 What?
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    I agree with most of you that I think it was the last Lori conversation that pushed him to the point where he felt he needed to kill Rick. He'd already contemplated it but I think when she said this:
    I think the "he's going to make it alright" connected to the memory of lovemaking basically signed Rick's death warrant to Shane. It was confirmation that she felt protected with him and that was not necessarily what she felt with Rick in his mind. Decision made.
     
  15. Latrice

    Latrice Watchtower Sniper
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    You bringing up the fact that the relationship was a secret now makes me think even more about the situation. Like subconsciously I knew it was a secret relationship but they had no reason for it to be a secret. I can understand not speaking of it in front of Carl but as for as the other adults, there was no need to hide it from them. So it does make you wonder what their relationship was like or could have been like pre-ZA>

    And I agree with you, Shane wanted to be the go to person and he lost that the moment Rick showed up to be alive. IMO I think the group accepted Rick so quickly because he came back with the missing members while Shane was ready to leave them to their fates. So yeah I can see Shane wanting that leadership back.
     
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  16. Leannan

    Leannan Eating 112 oz. of Pudding

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    I agree with your post. Lori did love Shane. It was such a complicated relationship and understandable bond she did share with Shane, he helped her family survive, and they bonded during the worst times, that makes any two people closer. (Speaking of, how great was it that Rick understood what happened between them?)
    I liked this plot, it was written with such a gray area to it because you loved and hated the characters choices at the same time.
    Each side I understood fully. Whether I agreed with it or not but anyway-

    I think Shane decided he wanted to kill Rick, in "Better Angels" in his mind when Lori told him she was sorry but Shane he heard she loved him and didn't want him to go.
    Was there impulses before that? Sure. Shane was very rash,territorial, alpha like, what they played well was showing the huge differences between Rick and Shane, their choices since the beginning were so different.
    How Shane is, he's impulsive and that family became his the moment he and lori started sleeping together, and unfortunately he read Rick's forgiveness as weakness.

    But I mentioned this before, apart of me, thinks the Lucid part of Shane wanted Rick to kill him. I think it was an act of asking for it, He wasn't dealing with his demons very well and a huge part of him knew he could not have that family.
     
    #16 Leannan, Feb 1, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
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  17. thesamurai

    thesamurai The World Is Ours
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    I think from the very beginning, when Rick reunited with Lori and Carl. I'm sure he wanted to very deep down.
     
  18. thenidefyyoustars

    thenidefyyoustars Vault-Tec's #1 Richonne Shipper
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    I agree. The opening scene where they're talking in the patrol car and then later when they're talking about their high school dating lives in s2 show how different their lives were. It doesn't seem like Shane was really able to commit or hold a steady relationship. Rick, on the other hand, pretty much dated Lori and married her as soon as they got out of school. Rick had the stability that I think Shane was looking for and could never obtain. Even though Rick and Lori didn't have the best relationship, it was more than what Shane had.

    When shit went down and they thought Rick was dead, Shane took that opportunity to fulfill that role. He got comfortable and couldn't bear losing that when Rick came back. I think Shane resented him the second he got out of that truck at the quarry, and that grew over time as Lori pushed Shane back out. When Shane pointed the gun at Rick he had made up his mind that he wanted him gone.
     
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  19. Lyra_Nation

    Lyra_Nation Young, scrappy, and hungry
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    Whoo! So much to talk about with this tangled mess of Shane/Lori/Rick and when Shane decided to kill him. Okay.

    I do think it was that last conversation with Lori that made Shane decide he was going to go all-in. Get rid of Rick, claim Lori and the baby, and take them as his. She asked him to stay. That was the biggest thing. The minute she asked him to stay, I was like, "Oop. Nope. His hopes are getting way too high. It's over. This is it." I knew Shane was about to make a climactic decision.

    I don't think he was "testing" Randall. I think he had in his mind that the kid needed to die right from the beginning and only a miracle was going to change that.

    I agree that I think Lori loved Shane. Or she was at least confused about her feelings and thinking she possibly loved him. That hesitation she had when she and Shane were talking after she tried to take the car out to find Rick when he kept saying, "We had something special." And she was denying it, but then in the end you saw her have this moment of hesitation and consideration before they were interrupted. The thing is, even if Lori loved Shane (which there was a good possibility she did), she wasn't going to leave Rick for him because I believe she was the type of woman to put the promise she made during marriage over love. And that's respectable but it can also be damaging, which I think is part of the reason why things kept getting worse and worse with the "love triangle". Lori would side with Rick just because she wanted to do the wifely thing and side with her husband, but then she wouldn't tell him how she really felt.

    And I also believe Shane was a better man than to have an affair with Lori pre-ZA. I do think, though, that he maybe would have urged her to get a divorce if he thought there was any kind of mutual inkling of feelings between them and THEN they could have something. Lol. Or maybe not. I don't know. I do think Shane and Rick's friendship was a true and deep friendship though, even though Shane probably did suffer from feelings of deep-seated jealousy and resentment at times.
     
  20. Tater

    Tater Awaiting Job from Deanna
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    He was so confident that he was right about Randall that there was no doubt in his mind that he was going to kill him. He just needed that confirmation. There was no reason for him to tell Randall that he wanted to be part of his group and ask Randall if he was willing to take Shane to them if he wasn't testing him. He could have just killed him.